Spanking?

[Karried]

We've discussed this at length on other topics so I'll start a new thread relating to this subject. For those who know me, they know I am 100% opposed to spanking, hitting, shoving, shaking, pinching or any other form of physical discipline towards a child. What used to be a standard accepted form of discipline is now frowned on by nearly every child expert in the world. I believe It is time that people try to educate themselves about the dangers that this form of discipline brings to a child and to society. It's not our faults that we weren't taught to not hit our children. My relatives told me to let my new born baby cry or be spoiled for life. I've had grandparents and parents tell me to spank my 2 year old for saying No to me. Thankfully, I was informed about child development and knew better but so many parents are ill advised and that is all they knew as children so they repeat the cycle. We can only move forward from here - we've all made parenting mistakes and I've made more than I can count, but I encourage those who can learn with an open mind to do some research and find new ways to interact with our children. I'm not trying to criticize or make parents feel guilty if they have spanked a child in the past. I'm trying to pass on some education in the hopes that we can all learn and change the way we've done things for the betterment of children. For those who want to become informed about corporal punishment and the effects on children. I could find endless articles but I thought this sums it up.

The Lasting Effect on Children
Some researchers claim that every act of violence by an adult toward a child, no matter how brief or how mild, leaves an emotional scar that lasts a lifetime. To some extent we can demonstrate this from personal experience. Most of us must admit that the most vivid and most unpleasant childhood memories are those of being hurt by our parents. Some people find the memory of such events so unpleasant they pretend that they were trivial, even funny. You’ll notice that they smile when they describe what was done to them. It is shame, not pleasure, that makes them smile. As a protection against present pain, they disguise the memory of past feelings.

In an attempt to deny or minimize the dangers of spanking, many spankers have been heard to argue, “Spanking is very different from child abuse,” or “A little smack on the bottom never did anybody any harm.” But they are wrong.

A good comparison to spanking is exposure to chemical compounds containing lead. In earlier generations, most people lived in houses painted with lead based paint, and most survived with no apparent ill effects. Were they smart, or just lucky? Today, we don’t do that anymore. We know better. Likewise, informed parents recognize that spanking children is like exposing them to a dangerous toxin. No good can result and the risk is great.

But some parents will ask, “How can you claim to be a responsible parent if you don’t grab the child who is about to run out into traffic and deliver a good smack so that your warnings about the danger of the street will be remembered?”

In fact, being spanked throws children into a state of powerful emotional confusion making it difficult for them to learn the lessons adults claim they are trying to teach. Delivering a so-called "good smack" neither diminishes the adult’s anger nor improves the child’s behavior. Adults who spank tend to get angrier; spanked children tend to behave worse. And spanking's negative effect on a child can be long-lasting or permanent. It does not teach children that cars and trucks are dangerous. It teaches them that the grownups on whom they depend are dangerous.

Lost Trust
The spanked child is less able to regard the parent as a source of love, protection and comfort which are vital to every child’s healthy development. In the child’s eyes the parent now appears to be the source of danger and pain. Fear, resentment and mistrust that result from spanking, undermine children’s feelings of attachment to the most important adults in their lives. A child who is thus betrayed, like the child who is denied adequate food, warmth or rest, suffers and fails to mature in the best possible way.

WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY

“Any form of corporal punishment or ‘spanking’ is a violent attack upon another human being’s integrity. The effect remains with the victim forever and becomes an unforgiving part of his or her personality — a massive frustration resulting in a hostility which will seek expression in later life in violent acts towards others. The sooner we understand that love and gentleness are the only kinds of called-for behavior towards children, the better. The child, especially, learns to become the kind of human being that he or she has experienced. This should be fully understood by all caregivers.”
Ashley Montagu, Anthropologist

“Corporal punishment of children actually interferes with the process of learning and with their optimal development as socially responsible adults. We feel it is important for public health workers, teachers and others concerned for the emotional and physical health of children and youth to support the adoption of alternative methods for the achievement of self-control and responsible behavior in children and adolescents.”
Dr. Daniel F. Whiteside, Assistant Surgeon General, Department of Health & Human Services (Administration of President Ronald Reagan)

“Punitive measures whether administered by police, teachers, spouses or parents have well-known standard effects: (1) escape—education has its own name for that: truancy, (2) counterattack—vandalism on schools and attacks on teachers, (3) apathy—a sullen do-nothing withdrawal. The more violent the punishment, the more serious the by-products.”
B. F. Skinner, Ph.D., author, Professor of Psychology, Harvard

“Corporal punishment trains children to accept and tolerate aggression. It always figures prominently in the roots of adolescent and adult aggressiveness, especially in those manifestations that take an antisocial form such as delinquency and criminality.”
Philip Greven, Professor of History, Rutgers University

“I have always been an advocate for the total abolition of corporal punishment and I believe the connection with pornography that is so oriented has its roots in our tradition of beating children.”
Gordon Moyes, D. D., Pastor, Uniting Church, Superintendent of the Wesley Central Mission, Sydney, Australia

“The much-touted ‘religious argument’ to support corporal punishment is built upon a few isolated quotes from the Book of Proverbs. Using the same kind of selective reading, one could just as easily cite the Bible as an authority for the practice of slavery, the rigid suppression of women, polygamy, incest and infanticide. It seems to me that the brutal and vindictive practice of corporal punishment cannot be reconciled with the major themes of the New Testament which teach love and forgiveness and a respect for the beauty and dignity of children, and which overwhelmingly reject violence and retribution as a means of solving human conflicts.”
Thomas E. Sagendorf, United Methodist Pastor, Toledo, Ohio

“The development of self-control, which we call conscience, results from the appropriate interaction of children with their caretakers. Children’s experience of love and respect promotes the development of conscience, whereas the experience of fear or pain, as results from spanking and paddling, interferes with this development. Physical punishment of children must end if our society is going to become one that is governed by conscience and self-control rather than be governed by their opposites.”
H. Patrick Stern, M.D., Asst. Prof. of Pediatrics, Psychiatry and Behavioral Pediatrics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences.

“Infliction of pain or discomfort, however minor, is not a desirable method of communicating with children.”
American Medical Association, House of Delegates, 1985

"Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... Beating them, and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise, good, and ingenuous men."
John Locke, 1632-1704, "Some Thoughts Concerning Education," 1692

“Chide not the pupil hastily, for that will both dull his wit and discourage his diligence, but [ad]monish him gently, which shall make him both willing to amend and glad to go forward in love and hope of learning... Let the master say, ‘Here ye do well.’ For I assure you there is no such whetstone to sharpen a good wit and encourage a love of learning as his praise... In mine opinion, love is fitter than fear, gentleness better than beating, to bring up a child rightly in learning.”
Roger Ascham, (Tutor to Queen Elizabeth I), The Schoolmaster, England, published circa 1568

“Children ought to be led to honorable practices by means of encouragement and reasoning, and most certainly not by blows and ill treatment.”
Plutarch, circa 46-120 A.D., “The Education of Children,” Vol. I, Moralia, Ancient Greece

“It is a disgusting and slavish treatment... When children are beaten, pain or fear frequently have the result of which it is not pleasant to speak and which are likely subsequently to be a source of shame, shame which unnerves and depresses the mind and leads the child to shun the light of day and loathe the light... I will spend no longer time on this matter. We know enough about it already.”
Quintilian, circa 35-95 A.D., Institutes of Oratory, Ancient Rome


QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Q: What do virtually all juvenile delinquents have in common?
A: They have been raised by spankers.

Q: What was a common feature of the childhoods of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein and Charles Manson?
A: Each one was relentlessly, severely, physically punished as a child.

Q: What do prisoners on death row all have in common?
A: Plenty of spankings during childhood.

Q: What do rapists, arsonists, terrorists, torturers, serial killers, mass murderers, suicide bombers, kidnappers, snipers, assassins, muggers, product tamperers, vandals, spouse batterers and stalkers have in common?
A: Violent upbringing.

Q: Which child is destined never to join the company of felons?
A: One who is raised in a nurturing, attentive, supportive, non-spanking family.

Q: To turn a friendly puppy into a vicious guard dog, what must you do to it?
A: Restrict its movement and beat it often.

[MadMonk]

I present this in an effort to clarify and differentiate spanking/corporal punishment from child abuse and to re-enforce the idea that spanking should not be removed from the parent's repertoire of methods for raising happy well-adjusted children.

From http://www.childprotectionreform.org...re_the_rod.htm

There are several arguments commonly leveled against disciplinary spanking. Interestingly, most of these arguments can be used against other forms of discipline. Any form of discipline (time-out, restriction, etc.), when used inappropriately and in anger, can result in distorting a child's perception of justice and harming his emotional development. In light of this, let us examine some of the unfounded arguments promoted by spanking opponents.

Argument #1: Many psychological studies show that spanking is an improper form of discipline.

Counterpoint: Researchers John Lyons, Rachel Anderson and David Larson of the National Institute of Healthcare Research recently conducted a systematic review of the research literature on corporal punishment.[6] They found that 83 percent of the 132 identified articles published in clinical and psychosocial journals were merely opinion-driven editorials, reviews or commentaries, devoid of new empirical findings. Moreover, most of the empirical studies were methodologically flawed by grouping the impact of abuse with spanking. The best studies demonstrated beneficial, not detrimental, effects of spanking in certain situations. Clearly, there is insufficient evidence to condemn parental spanking and adequate evidence to justify its proper use.

Argument #2: Physical punishment establishes the moral righteousness of hitting other persons who do something which is regarded as wrong.

Counterpoint: The "spanking teaches hitting" belief has gained in popularity over the past decade, but is not supported by objective evidence. A distinction must be made between abusive hitting and nonabusive spanking. A child's ability to discriminate hitting from disciplinary spanking depends largely upon the parents' attitude with spanking and the parents' procedure for spanking. There is no evidence in the medical literature that a mild spank to the buttocks of a disobedient child by a loving parent teaches the child aggressive behavior.

The critical issue is how spanking (or, in fact, any punishment) is used more so than whether it is used. Physical abuse by an angry, uncontrolled parent will leave lasting emotional wounds and cultivate bitterness and resentment within a child. The balanced, prudent use of disciplinary spanking, however, is an effective deterrent to aggressive behavior with some children.
...

Argument #3: Since parents often refrain from hitting until the anger or frustration reaches a certain point, the child learns that anger and frustration justify the use of physical force.

Counterpoint: A study published in Pediatrics indicates that most parents who spank do not spank on impulse, but purposefully spank their children with a belief in its effectiveness.[9] Furthermore, the study revealed no significant correlation between the frequency of spanking and the anger reported by mothers. Actually, the mothers who reported being angry were not the same parents who spanked.

Reactive, impulsive hitting after losing control due to anger is unquestionably the wrong way for a parent to use corporal punishment. Eliminating all physical punishment in the home, however, would not remedy such explosive scenarios. It could even increase the problem. When effective spanking is removed from a parent's disciplinary repertoire, he or she is left with nagging, begging, belittling, and yelling, once the primary disciplinary measures -- such as time-out and logical consequences -- have failed. By contrast, if proper spanking is proactively used in conjunction with other disciplinary measures, better control of the particularly defiant child can be achieved, and moments of exasperation are less likely to occur.

Argument #4: Physical punishment is harmful to a child.

Counterpoint: Any disciplinary measure, physical, verbal or emotional, carried to an extreme can harm a child. Excessive scolding and berating of a child by a parent is emotionally harmful. Excessive use of isolation (time-out) for unreasonable periods of time can humiliate a child and ruin the measure's effectiveness. Obviously, excessive or indiscriminate physical punishment is harmful and abusive. However, an appropriately-administered spanking of a forewarned disobedient child is not harmful when administered in a loving controlled manner.

Without the prudent use of spanking for the particularly defiant child, a parent runs the risk of being inconsistent and rationalizing the child's behavior. This inconsistent manner of parenting is confusing and harmful to the child and is damaging to the parent-child relationship. There is no evidence that proper disciplinary spanking is harmful to the child.

Argument #5: Physical punishment makes the child angry at the parent.

Counterpoint: All forms of punishment initially elicit a frustrated, angry response from a child. Progression of this anger is dependent primarily upon the parent's attitude during and after the disciplinary event, and the manner of its application. Any form of punishment administered angrily for purposes of retribution, rather than calmly for purposes of correction, can create anger and resentment in a child. Actually, a spanking can break the escalating rage of a rebellious child and more quickly restore the relationship between parent and child.

Argument #6: Spanking teaches a child that "might makes right," that power and strength are most important and that the biggest can force their will upon the smallest.

Counterpoint: Parental power is commonly exerted in routine child rearing and spanking is only one example. Other situations where power and restraint are exercised by the average parent include:

* The young child who insists on running from his parent in a busy mall or parking lot.
* The toddler who refuses to sit in his car seat.
* The young patient who refuses to hold still as a vaccination is administered, or as a laceration is repaired.

Power and control over the child are necessary at times to ensure safety, health and proper behavior. Classic child rearing studies have shown that some degree of power, assertion,[10] and firm control[11] is essential for optimal child rearing. When power is exerted in the context of love and for the child's benefit, the child will not perceive it as bullying or demeaning.

...

Argument #7: Spanking is violence.

Counterpoint: Spanking, as recommended by most primary care physicians,[12] is not violence by definition ("exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse").[13] Parents who properly spank do not injure or abuse their child.

The use of this term "violence" in the spanking debate only serves to deepen the confusion. Why do anti-spanking authors repeatedly fail to distinguish between abusive violence and mild spanking? The distinction is so fundamental and obvious that its omission suggests that these authors use such terminology for its propaganda value, not to clarify issues.

Argument #8: Spanking is an ineffective solution to misbehavior.

Counterpoint: Though the specific use of appropriate spanking has rarely been studied, there is evidence of its short-term and long-term effectiveness. When combined with reasoning, the use of negative consequences (including spanking) does effectively decrease the frequency of misbehavior recurrences with preschool children.[14] In clinical field trials where parental spanking has been studied, it has consistently been found to reduce the subsequent frequency of noncompliance with time-out.[15] Spanking, as a effective enforcer of time-out, is a component of several well-researched parent training programs[16] and popular parenting texts.[17]

Dr. Diana Baumrind of the Institute for Human Development at the University of California-Berkeley, conducted a decade-long study of families with children 3 to 9 years old.[18] Baumrind found that parents employing a balanced disciplinary style of firm control (including spanking) and positive encouragement experienced the most favorable outcome in their children. Parents taking extreme approaches to discipline (authoritarian-types using excessive punishment with less encouragement or permissive-types using little punishment and no spanking) were less successful.

Baumrind concluded that evidence from this study "did not indicate that negative reinforcement or corporal punishment per se were harmful or ineffective procedures, but rather the total patterns of parental control determined the effects on the child of these procedures."

This approach of balanced parenting, employing the occasional use of spanking, is advocated by several child rearing experts.[19] In the hands of loving parents, a spanking to the buttocks of a defiant toddler in appropriate settings is a powerful motivator to correct behavior and an effective deterrent to disobedience.

Argument #9: Adults who were spanked as children are at risk for using violence as a means of resolving conflicts as adults.

Counterpoint: This theory comes from work done by Murray Straus of the Family Research Lab at the University of New Hampshire. Straus' conclusions are based upon theoretical models and survey results of adults recalling spankings as teenagers. His work is not clinical research, and many experts believe that his conclusions go far beyond his data. As with most of Straus' survey research, teenage spanking is the focus, not the selective use of spanking of young children by reasonable parents. The evidence for his conclusion disappears when parental spanking is measured between the ages of 2 and 8 years, and when childhood aggression is measured at a later age.

In a 1994 review article on corporal punishment, Dr. Robert E. Larzelere, a director of research at Boys Town, Nebraska, presents evidence supporting a parent's selective use of spanking of children, particularly those 2 to 6 years old.[20] After thoroughly reviewing the literature, Larzelere concludes that any association between spanking and antisocial aggressiveness in children is insignificant and artifactual.

After a decade of longitudinal study of children beginning in third grade, Dr. Leonard Eron found no association between punishment (including spanking) and later aggression. Eron, a clinical psychologist at the Univeristy of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, concluded, "Upon follow-up 10 years after the original data collection, we found that punishment of aggressive acts at the earlier age was no longer related to current aggression, and instead, other variables like parental nurturance and children's identification with their parents were more important in predicting later aggression."[21]

Again, it is the total pattern of parenting that determines the outcome of a parent's efforts.

Argument #10: Spanking leads a parent to use harmful forms of corporal punishment which lead to physical child abuse.

Counterpoint: The abuse potential when loving parents use appropriate disciplinary spanking is very low. Since parents have a natural affection for their children, they are more prone to underutilize spanking than to overutilize it. Both empirical data and professional opinion oppose the concept of a causal relationship between spanking and child abuse.

Surveys indicate that 70 to 90 percent of parents of preschoolers use spanking,[22] yet the incidence of physical child abuse in America is only about 5 percent. Statistically, the two practices are far apart. Furthermore, over the past decade reports of child abuse have steadily risen while approval for parental spanking has steadily declined.[23]

More than 70 percent of primary care pediatricians reject the idea that spanking sets the stage for parents to engage in forms of physical abuse.[24]

Teaching parents appropriate spanking may actually reduce child abuse, according to Larzelere, in his 1994 review article on corporal punishment.[25] Parents who are ill-equipped to control their child's behavior, or who take a more permissive approach (refusing to use spanking), may be more prone to anger[26] and explosive attacks on their child.[27]

Parental child abuse is an interactive process involving parental competence, parental and child temperaments, and situational demands.[28] Abusive parents are more angry, depressed and impulsive, and emphasize punishment as the predominant means of discipline. Abused children are more aggressive and less compliant than children from nonabusive families. There is less interaction between family members in abusive families and abusive mothers display more negative than positive behavior. The etiology of abusive parenting is multifactorial with emphasis on the personalities involved, and cannot be simply explained by a parent's use of spanking.

In a letter to the editor in a 1995 issue of Pediatrics, Drs. Lawrence S. Wissow and Debra Roter of Johns Hopkins University's pediatrics department acknowledge that a definitive link between spanking and child abuse has yet to be established.[29]

Finally, the Swedish experiment to reduce child abuse by banning spanking seems to be failing. In 1980, one year after this ban was adopted, the rate of child beatings was twice that of the United States.[30] According to a 1995 report from the government organization Statistics Sweden, police reports of child abuse by family members rose four-fold from 1984 to 1994, while reports of teen violence increased nearly six-fold.[31]

Most experts agree that spanking and child abuse are not on the same continuum, but are very different entities. With parenting, it is the "user" and how a measure is used much more than the measure used that determines the outcome of the disciplinary effort. Clearly, spanking can be safely used in the discipline of young children with an excellent outcome. The proper use of spanking may actually reduce a parent's risk of abusing the child.

Argument #11: Spanking is never necessary.

Counterpoint: All children need a combination of encouragement and correction as they are disciplined to become socially responsible individuals. In order for correction to deter disobedient behavior, the consequence imposed upon the child must outweigh the pleasure of the disobedient act. For very compliant children, milder forms of correction will suffice and spanking may never be necessary. For more defiant children who refuse to comply with or be persuaded by milder consequences such as time-out, spanking is useful, effective, and appropriate.


Conclusion

The subject of disciplinary spanking should be evaluated from a factual and philosophical perspective. It must be distinguished from abusive, harmful forms of corporal punishment. Appropriate disciplinary spanking can play an important role in optimal child development, and has been found in prospective studies to be a part of the parenting style associated with the best outcomes. There is no evidence that mild spanking is harmful. Indeed, spanking is supported by history, research, and a majority of primary care physicians.

***

-- By Den A. Trumbull, M.D. and S. DuBose Ravenel, M.D. Dr. Trumbull is a board-certified pediatrician in private practice in Montgomery, Alabama. He is a member of the Section on Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics of the American Academy of Pediatrics. Dr. Ravenel is a board-certified pediatrician in private practice in High Point, North Carolina. He served for 11 years on the pediatric faculty of the University of North Carolina School of Medicine prior to entering private practice.


ET CETERA, ET CETERA
Guidelines for Disciplinary Spanking

The following are guidelines that Dr. Den Trumbull has used to advise the parents he serves in disciplining children. These guidelines should help policymakers appreciate the legitimacy of disciplinary spanking.

1. Spanking should be used selectively for clear, deliberate misbehavior, particularly that which arises from a child's persistent defiance of a parent's instruction. It should be used only when the child receives at least as much encouragement and praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior.

2. Milder forms of discipline, such as verbal correction, time-out, and logical consequences, should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists. Spanking has shown to be an effective method of enforcing time-out with the child who refuses to comply.

3. Only a parent (or in exceptional situations, someone else who has an intimate relationship of authority with the child) should administer a spanking.

4. Spanking should not be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control. A spanking should always be motivated by love for the purpose of teaching and correcting, never for revenge.

5. Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age and is usually not necessary until after 18 months. It should be less necessary after 6 years, and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age.

6. After 10 months of age, one slap to the hand of a stubborn crawler or toddler may be necessary to stop serious misbehavior when distraction and removal have failed. This is particularly the case when the forbidden object is immovable and dangerous, such as a hot oven door or an electrical outlet.

7. Spanking should always be a planned action, not a reaction, by the parent and should follow a deliberate procedure.

* The child should be forewarned of the spanking consequence for designated problem behaviors.
* Spanking should always be administered in private (bedroom or restroom) to avoid public humiliation or embarassment.
* One or two spanks should be administered to the buttocks. This is followed by embracing the child and calmly reviewing the offense and the desired behavior in an effort to reestablish a warm relationship.

8. Spanking should leave only transient redness of the skin and should never cause physical injury.

9. If properly administered spankings are ineffective, other appropriate disciplinary responses should be tried, or the parent should seek professional help. Parents should never increase the intensity of spankings.


ENDNOTES
[Edited for length. See website]

[Dungeon Master]

Karried,

I do agree to some point but I disagree on other.
As in what you wrote:
"Lost Trust
The spanked child is less able to regard the parent as a source of love, protection and comfort which are vital to every child’s healthy development. In the child’s eyes the parent now appears to be the source of danger and pain. Fear, resentment and mistrust that result from spanking, undermine children’s feelings of attachment to the most important adults in their lives. A child who is thus betrayed, like the child who is denied adequate food, warmth or rest, suffers and fails to mature in the best possible way."

I was spanked as a child and never thought less of my parents. I never looked at my parents as painful or dangerous. I never mistrusted my parents. When I did something bad or against what I was taught, I got spanked. Did I turn out bad?
I graduated from high school. I elected to join the service to defend my country (and my parents) and have been now for over 21 years. I think I matured quite well.
My brother graduated high school, went to college and is now an MRI technician. Seems like he is doing well helping the people who are in need of medical attention. He was brought up in the same house hold next to me.
Neither one of us has a police record or do drugs. We both have respected out parents, trusted our parents and never stopped loving them.
I love my parents and trust them as my son does me. I have disciplined my son in the same ways my parents have done to me. He is growing to be a polite young man with high ambitions. He looks up to me as I did my parents.
If a child has been taught right from wrong, and they do wrong, they should know that there is a punishment for that. The punishment "Time Out" is a waste of time.
The point I do agree on is, don't spank the child to death. Anger management needs to be in place when any discipline is enforced. That goes for anybody at home or at work.
My son is now 14 and hasn't had a spanking in many years. It's because I nipped it in the butt a long time ago.
All the research and doctors can say one thing. But my life tells the truth.

[ibda12u]

I too was brought up in a home where spanking was allowed. As a kid I got into a lot of trouble, because of my behavior. My behavior was not caused because of spanking but because I was more interested in getting my way than listening to anyone else. I was a kid, but the main factor guiding my life was do what I want. I was even busted a few times for stealing, small toys etc.. but enough so that I was banned from a store once. It was my mother and father who consistently, and lovingly spanked me, never beat me (face, body, blows etc..)and finally when I was a preteen I just came to my senses and said I didn't want to get spanked anymore, as I was getting in trouble probably every day. So I started thinking about my actions, and would ask myself if I do this will I get into trouble? Over time I stopped being the misbehaving kid I was. This was due to the consistant spankings I got, as my reasoning for not misbehaving, was "what do I need to do to not get spanked" and the answer was simple, listen to my parents and those in authority, and stop behaving like I was 30 at age 11. So my life also tells me what it was that turned me around, and it wasn't grounding or timeout.

[Karried]

The report by Trumball was written 10 years ago in Alabama... I'd like to think we have progressed a bit. This is lengthy so here is a point by point rebuttal of his report:

http://www.nospank.net/johnson2.htm

It doesn't surprise me that we all say we are perfectly fine after being spanked as children. Who would want to admit to anything else? It sounds like we are criticizing our parents and realistically, no one wants to admit to having problems.

I do find it hard to believe though that all parents use the 'proper spanking method' recommended by Trumbell. Unfortunately, most people aren't educated on this method and don't take the time to research issues, so when they hear spanking is good for their child - well, you know the rest.

Madmonk, you probably won't change your mind about corporal punishment and I won't change my mind about it either.

We can just do the best job we know how with our kids.

If all this post does is possibly protect one child, then it is worth it to me.

[dirtrider73068]

I was spanked when I was little and learned real quick that if I did it again I would get spanked again, though I was spanked pretty hard it stung. That to me is too much, but if it gets teh idea in the childs mind that if I do wrong then I get punished. I spank some pending on what was did wrong if it was a repeat offensive after many attempts to say stop adn they don't its a spanking. But I also switch around to time out, go the your room, no cartoons, no toys, or tv is turned off. Doing that way they never know for sure what the punishment will be. So that they won't ever know that everytime they get in trouble they get spanked. I think thats alot what is wrong with kids today is there is no serious punishment and kids just run free and wild. Start them young or you will never have control. I turned out for the good from my punishments, and my daughter is behaved because I have that control on her. Just don't over do the punishment or spanking thats when the harm sets in.

I am Kelly Ogle and thats my 2 cents!

[MadMonk]

Originally Posted by Karried

The report by Trumball was written 10 years ago in Alabama... I'd like to think we have progressed a bit.
...
If all this post does is possibly protect one child, then it is worth it to me.

Your quotes are undated so I can't speak to them (except the ones date 1692 et. al.) :surrender

In any case, I completely understand your point of view and if you prefer non-spanking methods of correcting your children I certainly have no issue with that. I am just tired of the blanket assumption - even accusation - that people who spank their children are abusing them or in danger of doing so. I totally agree that parents need to be aware of and educated on the proper method of spanking and also on alternatives to spanking. Every child is different and no one method works for every child. Whatever method employed needs to be done so with love and concern for the well-being of the child. You have probably seen more sorrowful things done to children than I could stand to see and I certainly don't want to give the impression that I endorse that sort of behavior.

I do think you have hit on a good idea in that new parents should take a course on methods of correcting innappropriate behavior in their children, like the pre-natal classes given to expectant parents. Like the saying goes, kids don't come with owner's manuals and more education in this area would definately be a good thing.

[Dungeon Master]

Yep, it may be the newer generation that needs to be thought of as times change and so do the ways of life. No blame intended. Some of the older generation wasn't any different, some.
Karried, it was good to bring this up in reminding us who read it realize that some of us may have had the total outcome in a positive manner, there are others who have not. It can't be stressed enough that when it comes to "children" and "abuse" brought up in the same quote, it is to hope at least one parent will think about it the next time a spanking may be needed and use the "spanking method" in the right way. At least we hope.

[dirtrider73068]

Thats the whole deal, some parents take spanking a step too far then thats when it can be abuse. But nowhere can it be claimed as being abuse. I can watch adny kid right now and tell you if they have been spanked or if any at all punishment is used for misbehavior. I punished for acting up and I turned out for the good. I think my parents for there being like to me if not there is no telling how I would have turned out.

Had my parents not appropriately whacked me, I might not be the jewel I am today.

I think the results speak for themselves. We had a lot less problems in schools backin the 50's and 60's when prayer and spanking were common. The lack of discipline and religion in many households today is leading to the deterioration of morals in our culture.

[Karried]

It gives me great hope that we can discuss issues that are sometimes heated, in respectful ways. I know most of you are wonderful parents and the love and guidance you offer will surely pay off in the long run. I know we all want the best for our children and the children who aren't fortunate enough to have parents who care and love them as much as we do our own.

On another note:

Remember, if you suspect child abuse, please don't hesitate to call - it sometimes might be the only hope a child can cling to - an adult who cares enough to call and get protection for them.

Oklahoma (OK)
(800) 522-3511


If no number is listed for Oklahoma, or if you get no answer call:

Childhelp® USA National Child Abuse Hotline
1-800-4-A-CHILD®
(1-800-422-4453)
TDD: 1-800-2-A-CHILD

[Dungeon Master]

You ar e absolutely right Karried. Great stuff to know and yes, we should always be aware of this.

[rxis]

just don't get carried away with accusations please

What is the spanking method in the right way? It varies for different cultures and even every single household.

Originally Posted by dirtrider73068

Thats the whole deal, some parents take spanking a step too far then thats when it can be abuse. But nowhere can it be claimed as being abuse. I can watch adny kid right now and tell you if they have been spanked or if any at all punishment is used for misbehavior. I punished for acting up and I turned out for the good. I think my parents for there being like to me if not there is no telling how I would have turned out.

There is no way anyone can claim the ONLY punishment available, the ONLY thing you can do to make kids behave is to hit them. I see WAY too many statements like this that seem to indicate the choices are "hit your kids" or "let them do whatever they want with no consequences." There are a world of possibilities in between those extremes.

I'd say that yes, ANY spanking is abusive because we as a society know it's not a good way to make children behave and causes a lot of problems later. Better choices are available, and people who hit their kids do so out of ignorance. There are few things, VERY few things, we as a society do more poorly than teaching people to be good parents. There is this assumption that if you're old enough to give birth, you are automatically in possession of all the knowlege needed to be an excellent parent. Young parents, single parents, working parents...no one seems to be offering much help to them, they just have to figure it out on their own, and in most cases they're going to fall back on what their parents did, however ineffective and wrong it may have been.

Originally Posted by Patrick

I think the results speak for themselves. We had a lot less problems in schools backin the 50's and 60's when prayer and spanking were common. The lack of discipline and religion in many households today is leading to the deterioration of morals in our culture.

Prayer is perfectly well allowed in school today. My kids can pray any time they want to so long as it doesn't disturb others. Going back to the bad ole days when Christianity was crammed down the throats of public school children, in obvious violation of the Constitution, isn't the answer to our problems any more than going back to the bad ole days when beating children with a wooden paddle was considered "discipline"
Yes, there is a lack of religion in our society. Not only is violating the 1st Amendment to force religious teaching on those who don't want it unAmerican, the fact that it keeps getting suggested turns a lot of people off to organized religion and hurts our churches even more.

[Dungeon Master]

Originally Posted by ColumbiaCowboy

Prayer is perfectly well allowed in school today. My kids can pray any time they want to so long as it doesn't disturb others. Going back to the bad ole days when Christianity was crammed down the throats of public school children, in obvious violation of the Constitution, isn't the answer to our problems any more than going back to the bad ole days when beating children with a wooden paddle was considered "discipline"
Yes, there is a lack of religion in our society. Not only is violating the 1st Amendment to force religious teaching on those who don't want it unAmerican, the fact that it keeps getting suggested turns a lot of people off to organized religion and hurts our churches even more.

So ColumbiaCowboy, I guess "under God" in school is a bad thing too?

Why use the term cowboy in your ID when cowboys shot indians if you are so against mild punishment like a little spanking and praying for what the nation has grown up with?
I think your horse just left town.


Patrick, I agree with what you mentioned.

[dirtrider73068]

We need more punsihment in todays world, if there was would less crime. If somebody tried to force christ or church or any thing in matter like that to me or ro my kids in school there would be a very big fight. I DO NOT want church or god forced into my life. That is a choice for whoever wants that in there life. And it should not be forced in school. Spanking, you bet I am all for it, I got when I was young and my kids now get it when they are bad. It is only used in moderation and not over used like some people. You can see those that don't use any type of punishment when there kids are running wild in walmart and parents are no where to be found. I say spank, spank away!

Originally Posted by ColumbiaCowboy

Prayer is perfectly well allowed in school today. My kids can pray any time they want to so long as it doesn't disturb others. Going back to the bad ole days when Christianity was crammed down the throats of public school children, in obvious violation of the Constitution, isn't the answer to our problems any more than going back to the bad ole days when beating children with a wooden paddle was considered "discipline"
Yes, there is a lack of religion in our society. Not only is violating the 1st Amendment to force religious teaching on those who don't want it unAmerican, the fact that it keeps getting suggested turns a lot of people off to organized religion and hurts our churches even more.

Originally Posted by dirtrider73068

We need more punsihment in todays world, if there was would less crime.

There's a big difference between "needing more punishment", which is debatable, and beating children which is proven NOT to reduce crime and in fact probably just makes the problem worse. You're absolutely right, the crime rate and other major problems in our society DO begin very early in life, and we DO need to do a lot more with kids to prevent problems in the future.
You're very wrong if you think that means just hitting kids.

If somebody tried to force christ or church or any thing in matter like that to me or ro my kids in school there would be a very big fight. I DO NOT want church or god forced into my life. That is a choice for whoever wants that in there life. And it should not be forced in school.

You're right, it doesn't belong in public schools. I have "forced," if you will, my children who are too young to make a fully educated decision, to go to church when they were little. My son, as he's gotten older, has chosen not to continue and is probably what most would call "agnostic," he doesn't really believe any of it, but I don't think he's a bad person or "going to hell" as a result, and he'll probably come around as he gets older. My daughter's very devout and hassles me on the mornings I want to sleep in instead of going to church.

Spanking, you bet I am all for it, I got when I was young and my kids now get it when they are bad.

Kids are never bad. They do bad things. And while I don't think it should be banned for parents, you should know that it's NOT a good way to improve your children's behavior. My kids are very, very well-behaved and we never hit them. On the other hands, there are plenty of kids who get whooped all the time who are absolute terrors.

It is only used in moderation and not over used like some people.

Hitting your children a single time is overuse as far as I'm concerned. It's not neccessary at all. Ever. There is ALWAYS a better way to discipline your kids, to teach them what is and isn't wrong.

You can see those that don't use any type of punishment when there kids are running wild in walmart and parents are no where to be found.

You're right. It's awfully short-sited to think all that's needed there is a beatin'. Fact is, most of those kids probably DO get spanked when their parents just run out of patience with them. There is a real lack of good parenting there, but simply spanking them isn't good parenting. Not even close. I've said before, we do a horrible job as a society of teaching parenting, people think it's just something you automatically know, as if the ability to reproduce automatically gives you this knowlege and these skills. It's why I'm a huge proponent of "Parents as Teachers," a program we have that brings experts into the homes of parents with new kids and helps them find better ways. They talk about parenting, discipline, development, learning, check to make sure the kids are developing, offering help if there are concerns, it's a great program...
and one whose prime proponant is a conservative Republican, Kit Bond.



I say spank, spank away![/quote]

[dirtrider73068]

I didn't say to beat or get rough. It only takes small punishments for toddlers to learn that what they did was wrong. I spank mine but like said in moderation with other uses of punishment no tv, no toys, time out. S[anking is not used all the time. I am sure there are parents out there that do nothing but spank, and eventually it won't do any good. Those are ones that will probaly cause trouble later in life. My kids allthough at times can misbehave I can tell them to settle down or knock it off and will most times stop. They can be well behaved in stores but being my oldest is 3 still pushes that limit and goes beyond, and of course gets punished for it. I may not do it there but will threaten removal of tv or toys when we get home. Most of the time if not all times that will work by its self.

[Karried]

I think putting toddlers and young children in situations in which they are not ready to handle and can't be expected to behave for long periods of time, is more of a problem that the parents have rather than the child.

I get so mad when parents slap or critique, scream etc at young kids because they are being inconvenienced during a marathon clothes shopping spree or something equally boring and inappropriate for a child ... I see them dragging young hungry, tired, cranky kids around while they shop for clothes or do whatever, and then spank the kid for acting up.

I constantly see parents expecting more out of a young child than he/she could ever hope to achieve. They are not adults...in fact a toddler is barely more than a baby. You have to understand child development before lashing out and demanding adult behavior from a child not yet capable of controlling themselves.

The parent needs to understand, kids don't have the patience or capacity to behave and control themselves when they are that young. They are not adults and shouldn't be punished for not being able to contain their energy or react as an adult while they are so young.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have expectations of good behavior - but don't take a 3 year old to a two hour sit down dinner and expect them to act like Martha Stewart.. More like the Tazmanian Devil!

I so wish we had mandatory parenting classes before people were allowed to have kids. Ah well, I can only dream, we certainly don't live in a perfect world.