Corporal Punishment

[MadMonk]

In the spirit of the "Bully" thread. How do you feel about corporal punishment in our schools?

[mranderson]

I remember when I was in Junior High (for the kids, it is the real name of what YOU call middle school) and High School, we had swat contests, which I usually won. The guy who got the most swats at the end of the year won a prize from the other guys.

If this still goes on, do you really think swats are going to help? I think not.

[Faith]

Originally Posted by mranderson

If this still goes on, do you really think swats are going to help? I think not.

It all depends on the child, parents, and school administration to how effective any punishment will work.

[MadMonk]

Mr. Anderson, I have a sneaking suspicion that you have a pain fetish.

My Jr. High shop teacher was also the football coach. He was a monster-sized guy (at least to us at the time) and used to give swats for "playing pencils" (remember that!?). All the football players were in mortal fear of getting swats from him because we knew he was not only going to give us swats, but run our a$$es off in practice. I don't think anyone in shop class played pencils after their first encounter with that particular piece of lumber.

Originally Posted by okcgoddess

It all depends on the child, parents, and school administration to how effective any punishment will work.

I agree. When I was going to elementary school in Moore, corporal punishment was very real and very legal. The thing is, if I received swats at school, my parents were automatically notified. The last thing I wanted was for my parents to find out I received swats, because the punishment at home was much more severe than the one at school.

Granted, not all parents were like my parents. Some kids got swats, and although the parents were notified, the kids received no punishment at home. as kids, we got into our share of trouble, however, we learned our lessons the times we received swats.

I feel if corporal punishment was still in place, we would have better school children, and we would not need metal detectors in schools. Too many children get by with too many things now.

[Karried]

Many people have good intentions but you have to remember, you sometimes have the sadistic freaks who take out their anger on defenseless children...

Keith, realistically, if someone at school or elsewhere started 'paddling' your children, don't tell me you wouldn't be there in a minute wanting to know what was going on?

When we discipline our children, it's in love - when a stranger disciplines a child - who knows what the real agenda is. I'm glad no one touches my kids in school or elsewhere -

No way would I let anyone touch my children, ever.

[Dungeon Master]

I believe corporal punishment should be back but monitored and recorded via camera. I remember being paddled only a couple times in elementary school (Fairview) and didn't take long to straighten me out. Tha paddle had holes drilled in it to increase the effectiveness.
Now that I think about it. I'm glad for the punishment during my younger days. Lord knows how I might have turned out otherwise.
As for kids today, if the parents don't take charge and the schools can't do anything about it, those children will not learn a damn thing knowing they have more rights than their parents and the school. Obviously I'm not talking about all children as some parents teach their children from a very young age of the do's and dont's. But other parents not teaching their children the right things in life is plain lazy and is only harming the children's future into going the wrong way.
I have a 14 year old and if he got paddled at school, I would know there was a reason because I know my son's life and know what he does. Some parents don't even know that.
Parents stepping up to the plate and the paddle should work hand in hand.
If the parents did their job, the paddle wouldn't be needed in the first place.
If not the paddle, then the parents should be called to immediately to pick their child up from school. This I would think would upset the parent enough to straighten the child out if they care at all about their child.

Actually paddling is still allowed in public schools. It simply has to be done by the principal. It's never been outlawed in Oklahoma. My brother works at an elementary school in El Reno that still uses corporal punishment. Believe it or not, it works pretty well.

[Faith]

My son just started kindergarten in Shawnee. On the enrollment paperwork there was a question if I would allow corporal punishment by the staff. I checked "NO" that I would want to be notified of the problem and I would be the disclipliner. I agree in disclipline but I agree with Karried as well. I don't want anyone else touching my child.

[Dungeon Master]

I tell you what else is corporal punishment.

Taking away the celebration of dressing up for Halloween in schools and the celebration of Christmas in schools. Sure don't want to hurt someones feelings now do we?
Did you dress up in school when you was a kid? I did.
This let the kids show off what they were going to wear when they went trick or treating and WAS a lot of fun.

[Karried]

Here are the results of a nationwide study regarding discipline and corporal punishment.

http://www.surveyusa.com/50StateDisc...dbyTeacher.htm

OK is in the top five.

I believe in discipline and I believe in raising good kids but I don't believe in physical corporal punishment. I think parents are much stronger, they can be angrier and hit harder than a little body can handle.

I just read a story of a 'dad' who shoved his 5 year old's head through a wall because he didn't want him to be a sissy. He later died. Who knows what horrors he endured prior to this?

What gets me is the uneducated idiots who run around spewing 'spare the rod, spoil the child',
while sleeping around, getting pregnant, doing drugs and doing a million other unGodly things but when it comes to beating the hell out of their kids, they all of a sudden justify it by becoming holier than thou.

(By the way a rod is a tool to shepherd lost sheep like Jesus used, to guide and teach, a rod is not a belt, a switch or a 2x4 )

I loathe ignorant people and even more so, people who hurt children - we have to take a license to drive a car but anyone can have a baby - it makes me sick. We need better education and better birth control or sterilization.

[MadMonk]

What you are talking about is abuse, not corporal punishment. There is a huge difference.

[Karried]

I'm talking about people who think corporal punishment is a permissable action to take against a small child and sometimes lose control.

I'm talking about people who don't know when to stop and what is too much force and what isn't.

I'm talking about people who think corporal punishment is a spanking that leaves bruises for days. Any emergency room in the nation has multitudes of horror stories of corporal punishment gone terribly wrong.

I'm talking about preventative measures. I'm talking about educating parents.

Do you think parents start out the day thinking today I'll beat the crap out of my kid? Or do you think they might start out with a slap and then a spank (because that's accepted) and when that doesn't work - maybe if they do it a little harder or use a belt, it might work and then when that doesn't, they get really really pissed off, it turns into uncontrollable rage and the defenseless child is on the receiving end. Corporal punishment gone wrong.

Why not educate parents on other effective ways to discipline instead of encouraging physical discipline by calling it corporal punishment? Even the term is offensive to me - punishment rather than teaching and guiding.

Spanking is an easy way to punish a child ... it takes a lot more patience and work to use other methods like consistency and logical consequences and loss of privileges - it's much quicker to smack and beat a kid. But the long term negative effects are well documented.

Why not head off potential injury by teaching that violence toward anyone, a small child or adult is wrong and there are other ways of discipline?

It's like telling kids, if you start smoking pot it could lead to worse things like cocaine and that could lead to more drug use like heroine ... so teach them early on - don't start smoking pot.

Well, why not teach parents that hitting a child could lead to more severe beatings so ... teach them early on - don't start hitting them.

When you spank a child, chances are they will think it's the only way to solve a problem - in turn they may grow up and spank their children. I'm talking about trying to end the cycle of abuse through education. You can call corporal punishment/spanking whatever you want, it's still a bigger stronger person physically hitting a small defenseless child. Where do you draw the line on abuse?

This subject is very painful for me and very close to my heart. I was a therapeutic foster parent for physically and emotionally abused children for years. I've seen first hand the fear and confusion of abused children. I've rocked them back to sleep after nightmares and held them while they have cried and cried. I've had years of training on discipline methods - no one can ever convince me that parents don't lose control and injure their children or that corporal punishment is an effective way to control kids.

I've picked up little toddlers and bruised babies that were just brought in from hospitals.
These parents were told to discipline the baby for crying or they would be spoiled -

you know, use a little corporal punishment - it's an acceptable practice.

[MadMonk]

Again, you are talking about abuse and no one can justify abusing children. There is a difference. I may not be able to adequately explain the difference to you, but its one of those "I know it but can't explain it" sort of things. I'm not saying its the only way to discipline a child, but its one of the tools in the toolbox, to be applied in an appropriate manner at an appropriate time. Other methods of discipline can be just as "mean" as spanking. I can't tell you how many times I've heard parents berating their children verbally in ways that would crush even an adult's sense of self-worth.

I was spanked as a child, but never abused. The knowledge that an action my result in my receiving a spanking probably kept me out of more trouble than I'd care to think about. I have spanked my children, but never abused them. Just as not every person that drinks becomes an alcoholic, not every parent that spanks crosses the line into abuse. I'm sure you have seen terrible cases of abuse and I don't doubt that it happens, but don't lump everyone who spanks into the abuser category. Its a gross over-generalization.

I did a ride along with an OKC police officer a while back, and one of our first calls dealt with a runaway child that had returned home. This "child" was a young teenage boy who just didn't want to abide by his parents' rules.

The officer explained to the parents the different methods of punishment they could use, without breaking the law. If you spank a child on the butt, either in private or in public, it is not abuse. If you hit the child ANYWHERE else on their body, other than their butts, it is abuse, and it is against the law. So, if you slap your child in the face, or slap him/her on their head, you are abusing your child.

[Karried]

Madmonk, I'm not saying that you abuse your children.

We were all taught these things by parents who believed it was the right thing to do. We learned how to parent the way we were parented.

My mom used to chase us around with switches and hot wheel tracks - can you imagine? It never worked. My husbands dad repeatedly beat him until he was black and blue and to this day he doesn't even know why. I wanted to end that cycle and learn better ways to teach my children. I think I have, I'm not perfect and trust me, I can get so frustrated with my kids, but I don't hit them. I do love them so much and want them to be good people that I feel I have to learn ways to raise them that won't entail physically disciplining them.

I'm saying that some people go too far and they do because they (and society) already feel that spanking is okay. I don't think spanking a child is productive. I don't think it teaches them self discipline. It teaches them that big people can hit small people.

Even if it doesn't cross the line, most professionals feel that a big person hitting (spanking) a small child is not acceptable. There are so many people who say 'I was spanked and I turned out okay'. And maybe so... but there are a lot of kids that were spanked that didn't turn out okay - they hate their parents. And just maybe if the parents had other ways of discipline, the children wouldn't be so scarred and resentful.

It's an age old controversy. It used to be socially acceptable to beat your wife too.

That's a big part of changing ways of thinking in our society. We carry down things we were taught even if they are right or wrong. Some things are valid and we should carry on traditions but sometimes, people should open their minds and think there may be a better way, why not explore other ways? We become so intent on proving our arguments and being right that we sometimes refuse to see another way - maybe a better way?

This isn't a personal attack against anyone - it is an attack against outdated ideas and against those who harm young children.

[mranderson]

Well said Karrie.

It appauls me the people who say "I spank my kids" then turn around and teach them that hitting people is wrong. It is like the old double standard of a guy saying to his son after he has lost his virginity "Way to go son. I'm proud of you," then tell his daughters boyfriend "touch my daughter and you'll sing soprano."

I have never been in favor of spanking for the same reasons. It does no good. You do not really punish. You correct bad behavior. How? Simple. By example. For example. One of my nieces was always inturupting people. One of my major pet peeves as it is quite rude. I corrected it by inturpting her whenever she said anything. One day, she asked me why I kept inturupting her. I said "now you know how it feels, don't you." To this day, she lets everyone finish before speaking.

The sting of a paddle or a hand will end shortly. The sting of doing to them what they do to you lasts a lifetime. Well, I admit, so does verbal abuse. It (verbal abuse) is actually worse than the hand. I should know. I am a verbal abuse victim.

[Karried]

Keith, most states recognize any bruising on any body part as abuse. You can be arrested and your children can be taken by authorities until further investigations are complete.

Please, please people, don't hit your children. Remember, they are smaller and can't withstand the physical strength of an adult.


Physical Danger of Hitting the Buttocks
Located deep in the buttocks is the sciatic nerve, the largest nerve in the body. A severe blow to the buttocks, particularly with an instrument such as a piece of wood, could cause bleeding in the muscles that surround that nerve, possibly injuring it and causing impairment to the involved leg.


The very delicate tail bone at the base of spine is also susceptible to injury when a child is hit there. And when children are required to bend over for beatings, their sex organs may be injured. Dislocation of the tail bone and bruising the sex organs as a result of violent punishments are frequently reported by hospital authorities. Some people, in their attempt to justify battering children’s buttocks, claim that God or nature intended that part of the anatomy for spanking. That claim is nonsense. No part of the human body was made to be violated.

[Karried]

Mr Anderson, I agree as well. Verbal abuse can be horrible - it brings me back to the fact that some people just shouldn't have kids. They make you take a test to drive a car but anyone who can have sex can have a baby. I guess all we can do is try to watch out for the little innocent victims that didn't ask to be born into this...

As you can probably tell, I'm so passionate about this, it breaks my heart. I almost couldn't stand it when the little boy here in OK recently was found and he didn' t even know what Christmas was or a birthday present and he was 5 years old. He was so mistreated and abused - his crappy parent ruined him for life, he won't forget. It makes me cry to even think about it. What a horrible shame for a baby to suffer like he did.

[MadMonk]

Well, this thread has morphed into one about child abuse and not the occasional spanking. Karried, I think your perspective has been skewed by your personal involvement with those poor kids you speak of so, I can understand your point of view. However, the occasional restrained rear-end spanking isn't going to hurt anyone like you describe.

Please understand that I'm not saying spanking is appropriate for everything. My personal experiences have taught me to use spanking sparingly and let their knowledge of consequences correct most bad behavior. In fact, I rarely have to even raise my voice. My kids are very well-behaved most of the time. I'm not opposed to alternative methods of discipline. I've think I've tried them all at one time or another with both good and bad results. Sometimes its not enough to speak with a child to correct their behavior. Sometimes its not enough to be a good example. I've seen kids that practically run the household because the parent wasn't strong enough to correct the problem with anything other than "Johnny, don't do that. Mommy's going to get angry! Go time-out!" I've also seen the results of those kid's poor behavior when they get older and uncontrollable. I'm not saying every kids turns out that way of course, but its something to consider.

There is never under any circumstance whatsoever a time when paddling a child is appropriate in a school. The claims that "kids were better when we hit them" are nonsense...there ARE societal problems leading to more bad behavior in the schools, but the answer isn't to start hitting kids, which has been proven beyond question NOT to improve behavior.
My children's behavior in school has always been excellent, and they've never been hit at home or at school.

[MadMonk]

Originally Posted by ColumbiaCowboy

There is never under any circumstance whatsoever a time when paddling a child is appropriate in a school.

Since that is your opinion, I'll leave it alone. Mine happens to differ.

Why are we bring back thses dead threads anyway?

If they're dead, why are they online?

I've come back after several months away, and wanted to comment on this important subject. If you consider it "dead" why reply?

And I STRONGLY disagree that this should just be left as "I think this, others can think differently." We're talking about what's best for our children here, and beating children in our schools should be illegal in 50 states and punishable by law. There is absolutely unquestionable scientific evidence that it is NEGATIVE for kids, that it does NOT promote better behavior in schools but DOES promote very bad things for the victim. It should be banned. It is, thankfully, in my town...a teacher who came after one of my kids with the paddles they abused us with when I was in school would find himself at the wrong end of assault charges.

[MadMonk]

Originally Posted by ColumbiaCowboy

If they're dead, why are they online?

I've come back after several months away, and wanted to comment on this important subject. If you consider it "dead" why reply?

BECAUSE YOU REVIVED IT!

Originally Posted by ColumbiaCowboy

And I STRONGLY disagree that this should just be left as "I think this, others can think differently." We're talking about what's best for our children here, and beating children in our schools should be illegal in 50 states and punishable by law. There is absolutely unquestionable scientific evidence that it is NEGATIVE for kids, that it does NOT promote better behavior in schools but DOES promote very bad things for the victim. It should be banned. It is, thankfully, in my town...a teacher who came after one of my kids with the paddles they abused us with when I was in school would find himself at the wrong end of assault charges.

Strongly disagree as much as you like. It makes no difference. Maybe you were abused in school, but I know I've had my fair share of swats in my time and I don't consider it abuse and I don't see anything wrong with it. You raise your kids your way and I'll raise mine as I see fit.

[Dungeon Master]

Originally Posted by ColumbiaCowboy

If they're dead, why are they online?

I've come back after several months away, and wanted to comment on this important subject. If you consider it "dead" why reply?

And I STRONGLY disagree that this should just be left as "I think this, others can think differently." We're talking about what's best for our children here, and beating children in our schools should be illegal in 50 states and punishable by law. There is absolutely unquestionable scientific evidence that it is NEGATIVE for kids, that it does NOT promote better behavior in schools but DOES promote very bad things for the victim. It should be banned. It is, thankfully, in my town...a teacher who came after one of my kids with the paddles they abused us with when I was in school would find himself at the wrong end of assault charges.

You came back after several months away? The forum shows you joined 20 SEP 05, that's today.
Who where you several months ago?