Oklahoma teacher pay raise discussion

[metro]

Oklahoma GOP leaders announce intentions for teacher salary increases
By - 8/14/2007


At a morning press conference, House Republicans announced they intend to look at a merit-based pay system for Oklahoma’s teachers.

Speaker of the House Lance Cargill said the plan’s first step will be hearings that begin Aug. 21 and end Oct. 9 to look at performance pay. The Republicans hope to have a proposal to present to the Legislature in February.

“I disagree with pay raises across the board,” Cargill said. “We’re using a 19th-century model where the worst teachers are paid the same as the best teachers.”

Cargill also said student test scores will be a part of their plan.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Wow...I bet they don't bork this up or anything.

[Blangdon]

I'm all for it. Reward teachers for doing well. No more of this blanket communist pay raise crap.

Now...the key is finding what will be the right metric by which to judge the performance of a teacher. It's going to have to be one heck of a hybrid to be acceptable by all. But of course some will oppose it simply because they want to have something to do.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

[bandnerd]

The problem for me with merit-based teacher pay is that some of us, mainly electives teachers, are not always eligible for such raises because there are no tests to judge improvement on the student's part.

And yes, I know a lot of schools give stipends for band directors and art teachers and whatnot...my school does not so much fall into that category, so as it is, I am stuck with my tiny little $200 a year step raise, or whatever it is.

I'm all for rewarding good teachers and getting rid of the bad, don't get me wrong, but they are going to have to think long and hard about how these rewards should be given out.

[teacher girl]

i am not for sure about those pay by test scores! there needs to be some safeguards in place to make sure that these teachers have the highest ethical standards to preparing the children (ie stop teaching to the tests, no suggesting lowest hang out with family that day, etc.......)

oklahoma needs to do something. I went from teaching in OK, then got a 10K pay raise going to texas, then lost it all when I moved back. It'll take 20+ years to make what a brand new teacher in texas makes..

plus, what merit base pay will a lowly preK teacher make?? ahhahahaha


I'll get off my soapbox now!!

[rugbybrado]

I don’t have any kids so this is easy for me to say...

why are the teachers always complaining about what they make - they go to college and have a very good idea what they are going to be paid afterwards, so why complain now when you only receive 200dollars pay raise a year?

I think merit based is a very good idea but it also makes me wonder if some teachers are developing the waiter/waitress mentality. where they expect 18-20 percent just for doing the bare minimum and then expect more on top of that if they do the job that they were hired to do correctly. But this isn’t with food, it’s with children.

Shouldn’t the teachers already be performing to the best of their ability?

They knew what they knew what type of field they were getting into when they started, why do they deserve more money for doing their job correctly?

From what I’ve seen I believe that a lot of them have job entitlement issues just because they are teachers. They have more job security than the rest of us so they arent worried about getting fired. In any other industry the ones that were not performing up to standards would be gotten rid of, so why should we pay you more money so that you have more motivation to do the job you were hired to do correctly ?

The rest of us dont get that benefit, why should you?

[Midtowner]

When someone in an adjoining state is making $10K more, I think that raises a lot of questions as to fairness of compensation.

Also, teacher pay raises have failed to keep up with inflation.

But you're right.. they're not important. We don't need to attract the best and brightest to these jobs. They're only teaching kids.. anyone can do that, right?

[rugbybrado]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

-When someone in an adjoining state is making $10K more, I think that raises a lot of questions as to fairness of compensation.

-Also, teacher pay raises have failed to keep up with inflation.

-We don't need to attract the best and brightest to these jobs. They're only teaching kids.. anyone can do that, right?

-One thing to remeber is cost of living. I could go to texas and make 20k more doing the same job im doing now. But then i would have a longer commute, traffic to sit in, higher engergy cost, homes cost more, grocerys cost more, healthcare cost more, etc,etc....

I think anyone on this board could go to texas for any job and make atleast 10k more, doesnt mean that i deserve a raise when i live in oklahoma because of it.

-I think teachers pay should keep up with inflation, i have no problem with that.

-Im not saying that. But get rid of the ones who dont want to do a good job instead of wasting 30-40k salary on them each year. If they dont want to do a good job then why would you want them their to begin with.

[rugbybrado]

heck, teachers could go to california and make twice as much as they do now!!!

but then they would pay almost a million dollars for a 1200sqft house. i've mentioned before that my previous job to this one, was working for a aerospace company out at tinker. another eng. that i worked with got a job offer from edwards afb and they were starting him at over 30k more than what we were currently making. sounds awesome on paper but when he started looking for housing and saw that a decent 1 bedroom apartment was 1400 dollars a month, gas is 4 dollars a gallon, food cost more, clothes cost more, etc.


its all depends on your location.

[Midtowner]

First of all, the cost of living is not higher in Texas. It is higher in certain parts of Texas. In places such as Conroe, Beaumont, even Fort Worth, the cost of living is below or comparable to what it is in much of Oklahoma. Yet their teachers are still paid $10K more for the same work -- and yes, lots of our teachers do leave for Texas.

Second, we are not the lowest cost place to live. Even so, we rank #48 in teacher pay and #47 in amount spent per student (data from NEA study in '06)

NEA: Rankings and Estimates 2006

Depending on the year, Oklahoma's per capita income is between 39 and 40. I think there ought o be less of a discrepancy between our per capita income and our per capita expenditure on teachers and students. Otherwise, such data simply shows that our state on the whole values education less than other states.

If the numbers showed our expenditure and salary were in the high 30's, low 40's, they'd be more forgivable. Yes... New Mexico is kicking our butts. They are the reverse of us. They are #40 in teacher pay while their per capita income is #47.

As far as getting rid of the good ones/bad ones... unless you fix the pay problem, the job security is one of the few things keeping teachers in our system. When the state isn't paying for incentives, it has to provide other things. Iron clad job security just happens to be one of those things.

I agree... tenure is something that is generally bad. Get rid of it, however, and you may have some major unintended consequences.

[rugbybrado]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

-First of all, the cost of living is not higher in Texas. It is higher in certain parts of Texas. In places such as Conroe, Beaumont, even Fort Worth,

-and yes, lots of our teachers do leave for Texas.

-Second, we are not the lowest cost place to live. Even so, we rank #48 in teacher pay and #47 in amount spent per student (data from NEA study in '06)

-As far as getting rid of the good ones/bad ones... unless you fix the pay problem, the job security is one of the few things keeping teachers in our system. When the state isn't paying for incentives, it has to provide other things. Iron clad job security just happens to be one of those things.

-In all the major cities it is higher, along with the suburbs of dallas the cost of living is greatly higher than it is here. Dallas isnt greatly more expensive than okc, but like i mentioned earlier enjoy the 45 minute commute each way to work. Cost of Living comparison calculator

-Thats fine, i had alot of buddies who moved down to texas after we graduated. Happens in more industry than with teaching.

-Reference mmm's post

-I also agree, but generally money is only a temporary fix. If you hate your job then you just hate your job and your not going to do it very well. If you get a bonus/raise that might make you happy short term, but in the end you will go back to being uphappy with your job and slacking off again.

Im not a analyst for the public teaching system so i dont know what the answers to this, but i dont think that throwing pay raises at certain teachers will solve the problem if we are letting the bad apples stay.

[mmm]

i suppose it depends on who you ask. certainly data from the nea (national education association) isn't going to be skewed in order to promote any particular agenda, is it? this site (with it's own agenda, i'm sure) adjusts teacher salary versus cost of living and oklahoma is 14th in the nation... we're still behind texas but when adjusted the state comes out better than the national average.

a quote from that nea study sits right next to the graph... "the nea admits that its rankings of nominal or unadjusted salaries will not produce apples-to-apples comparisons of teacher pay across states. the authors of the report caution, 'any discussion of average salary figures in the absence of other data about the specific state or district provides limited insights into the actual ‘value’ of those salaries.' "

so... in the nea's own words, the study is not valuable on its own for comparing the value of teachers' salaries between states.

-M

[bandnerd]

I always find it interesting just how adamant people are about not giving teachers more. Yeah, we all had that crappy teacher that just wouldn't leave because they had tenure...but we're not all like that, and I think that a lot of teachers deserve to be better compensated for the work they do.

We'll pay other people more who make a difference in the lives of children, such as pastors (just the first example that popped in my head, sorry) but we'll argue up and down about how teachers are paid enough, or in some people's minds, too much, and I find that sad.

You want someone to actually do a good job teaching your kid? Then pay them accordingly.

Obviously, I'm biased. And it is a difficult subject to discuss. However, in most businesses, if you do your job well, you are rewarded somehow. I get a $200 raise from years 3 to 4. Wow, that makes me feel special. If I had my Master's, I'd be making a whopping $1k more. The benefit there doesn't outweigh the cost to me.

And if for one second you think that I am not a good teacher, and that I don't spend more than 40 hours a week working, and that I take "summer's off" completely from work, then you're very much mistaken. You can ask Midtowner how much I work and do for my school.

[rugbybrado]

Originally Posted by bandnerd

-I think that a lot of teachers deserve to be better compensated for the work they do.

-You want someone to actually do a good job teaching your kid? Then pay them accordingly.

-However, in most businesses, if you do your job well, you are rewarded somehow.

-The benefit there doesn't outweigh the cost to me.

-I honestly dont think most k-12 teachers really are worth making 50+k a year. You work 9-10 months out of the year, you get holidays off, you get snow days, winter break, thanksgiving break, you work from 8-3 each day, once you have what your going to teach you just re-teach it every year. Plus more than likely if your not a coach or band director you always have your weekends off too.

-If you are unhappy being a teacher, a pay raise wont make you become a better teacher. If your heart is not in it, then find a new job.

-The truth is(i've known very many girls who were in the college of education at osu). The major is really easy, its like going into social work and then being pissed off when you get paid like a social worker. You cant go into a career like teaching/social work/liberal arts then be surprised that you get paid like crap when you get out.

You knew what you were getting into, if you dont like your job or your compensation then quit. Lots of other people out there will be more than happy to take your place.

[rugbybrado]

Guys,

My job is real hard and i sometimes put in over 40 hours a week. I only get 2.5 weeks of vacation a year. The work i does helps the entire oklahoma city area and 99 percent of okc residents have my services for their home and their familys. If you guys dont want to give me a raise i will come to work and purposely do a bad job that could possibly effect all of your familys.

Kthanksbye,

Brad

p.s. i dont care if its un-ethical to come to work and do a piss-poor job each day because im mad about my compensation - i will continue to do this instead of looking for more fulfilling work. give me more money that will motivate me to do a good job.

[mmm]

well... for the record, i'm not saying teachers shouldn't be paid more. i agree that there must be some incentive for the more qualified teachers to stay in-state. i just question some of the shady statistics used to support that conclusion. i think that taxpayers in this state have been presented with many different schemes that were supposed to 'save' education over the years. liquor by the drink. horse racing. hb 1017. the state lottery. these measures get voted in, yet we still hear how our teachers are underpaid. i think most people are skeptical at this point.

-M

[bandnerd]

1. Yes, I knew what I was getting into when I started my degree. I did not, however, realize how IGNORANT some people are about how much teachers actually do work and what we do.

2. I do not work from 8-3. I work from usually 7:15-4:30, which I believe is plenty. There are other times when it is 7:15-10pm. Yay for basketball season. And no, I do not receive extra compensation for those extra hours. We do not have overtime. I also have to come home and grade, and call parents, and do all the other stuff people have to do when they get home. I am not done at 3.

3. I did not get a liberal arts degree. I knew people that flunked out of my degree left and right, or those who quit because it was "too hard" to be a music education major. It took me five hard-fought years for my degree, and I graduated with as many credit hours as a pre-med major and a 3.95 GPA. It is NOT social work.

4. I know that the plural of family is families, not familys. Sorry, had to throw that one in there. I guess you did have a bad English teacher somewhere along your path.

5. I do not do a "piss-poor" job.

6. We had no snow days last year. My school does not take "parent-teacher conference" days, either. I only took 2 weeks off this summer. Almost every other day of the summer I was at the school working in my room, in the office, or I was at professional development in another state at some university or another.

7. If anything, ANYTHING at all, please do not take my post as a "pay me more" speech, but a "respect my profession" more speech, because dammit, so many people in this state do not value or respect education or educators, and I believe part of my job is to beat the ignorance out of people and teach them what's real and what's right. There are quite a lot of teachers out there that deserve at least respect from you.

I just think it's all bullspit to sit here and say that teachers "get what's coming to them." Crap. Complete and utter crap.

I don't go around telling ANYONE else how to do their job, or how hard their job is, or easy their job is, or anything. How DARE you come here and not even accept the notion that perhaps you MIGHT be wrong about a profession you have NOTHING to do with. And by all that, I mean rugby. Not mmm.

Okay, now I'm all riled up and I should go to the gym or something and run it off. I friggin' hate it when people piss all over my job, the profession that I love and cherish, because oh my god, I stand up for myself once in awhile and say hey, why don't I get compensated, at least RESPECTED, for the fact that I put up with your kids, nay, your TEENAGERS (a whole different breed of animal) for 8 hours of the day. Most parents aren't even around their own kids that much every day.

[metro]

Mid, while I agree with some of your points, you forget to mention Texas has almost 8 times the population of Oklahoma. The DFW metro area alone has twice the population of the entire state of Oklahoma. More residents equals more tax dollars equals bigger budgets for the state to spend everywhere, including education. as others have said, despite simliar housing costs in Texas, they also have higher energy costs, longer commutes, much higher property taxes, etc.

bandnerd, I understand where you're coming from, but you bring up the pastor analogy again. Again, you're not comparing apples to apples unless your talking about private schools only that receive ZERO public money. Pastors are paid with private money so frankly, a church can pay their pastor whatever they want. Most teachers are paid with public money so it is a public issue. Doesn't mean you, I or anyone agree that teachers are paid enough, overpaid, or underpaid, but that's the reality. I personally do think there needs to be a base raise in this state as well as some sort of comprehensive merit based pay.

[bandnerd]

metro--I used the pastor analogy because I was trying to think of other people who are often involved in a child's life and it was the first example that popped into my head. I see your point, but I thought I might clarify that a little bit. There are a lot of people involved in the growth of a child, but not many of them are paid

[Midtowner]

Originally Posted by metro

Mid, while I agree with some of your points, you forget to mention Texas has almost 8 times the population of Oklahoma. The DFW metro area alone has twice the population of the entire state of Oklahoma. More residents equals more tax dollars equals bigger budgets for the state to spend everywhere, including education. as others have said, despite simliar housing costs in Texas, they also have higher energy costs, longer commutes, much higher property taxes, etc.

Population is really pretty irrelevant here. Larger populations also cost more to serve -- and it's generally proportional. In fact, Texas, with its larger population spends more per pupil on education than Oklahoma by quite a long shot -- $696 per student (source: NEA 2006 school rankings, linked above).

Further, Texas serves 31 million students to our 4 million students (same source). As for longer commutes, higher property taxes, etc., Texans are taxed less than Oklahomans -- the average Texan paying $1,375 in state taxes while the average Oklahoman pays $1,754 (which when you start talking about income per capita and share of income per capita getting taxed, that's when Texas starts looking quite a bit cheaper in terms of taxation). (Source: The Public Policy Institute of New York State, Inc.).

So no, any way you slice it, Texans simply seem to value education and educators more than we do over here. Is that why their economy has shot past ours in the past 50 years? Quite possibly, that's at least one of the factors at play.

[okclee]

Education is the key to life.

There is no coinscidence that the states that put a premium on education are also the states with the better quality of life and with a thriving economy.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Originally Posted by okclee

Education is the key to life.

Oh piffle, no it isn't.

Pie is the key to life.

PIE.

[teacher girl]

someone said that teachers have secure jobs. NOPE! I started teaching in OK, then went to tx for 5 years, and just came back in october. I taught in a very large, urban district this past year teaching preschoolers who had AMAZING behavioral issues. I LOVED MY JOB!! I believe I did a good job with those kids, but thanks to the "system", my job was given away to a "tenured" teacher just because she CHOSE to leave her school. Now, she is in a place dealing with children she doesn't want to deal with in a situation that isn't "pleasant" for her.

With teaching, you have 3 semesters before you are given a perm. contract, and during those 3 semesters, either the admin. or you can choose to leave. But mine happened to be a horrid expereince (as the principal who GUARANTEED me my job didn't even tell me I had lost it)

anyways, about the pay.........after living in the dfw area for 5 years, the cost of living really isn't different than up here (at least not 10K different) I had just gotten a 5K pay raise at the beginning of the school year (then we had to up and move). I was making more than my mother who has taught for 20 plus years and had her masters (I had been teaching 7)

I don't complain about the pay, I knew what I was getting into (both folks are/were teachers), but what really upsets me is just that it doesn't seem to be important to the "higher ups" of the state.

the district I am in now is doing a consortium (sp??) with other districts across the u.s., and this "highly regarded" district in a "very nice city" had the LOWEST dollar amt. spent per child.

its always going to be an issue, especially when they start merit based pay and NCLB, I am always trying to learn and better myself as a teacher

what stinks about education, is once that "bad seed" teacher is tenured, there is almost NO WAY to get that person out of the classroom!! that, to me, is pathetic. There needs to be some ways to get rid of those tenured teachers who aren't pulling their weight

:::ff soapbox now::::::::

[Nixon7]

Originally Posted by okclee

Education is the key to life.

There is no coinscidence that the states that put a premium on education are also the states with the better quality of life and with a thriving economy.

Well put. Agree 100%. If we aren't going to value our teachers, if we are only going to think of them as babysitters and that they hardly work, then it comes full circle. We need to raise the teacher pay, use incentives, what ever we can to keep them HERE, and keep students and young adults from going as FAST as they can on I-35 South. As much as I hate Texas, you have to admit, they place importance in education and it has turned out well for them. The students want to stay in state, help their economy, etc, etc, etc...

[SweetNSourPoke]

Great thread!

The pay in Oklahoma is a bit of a mystery. I was surprised to get a higher offer to teach in Vietnam than in the Oklahoma City public school district.

We're talking about a third-world country, people! (referring to Vietnam)