Oklahoma teacher pay raise discussion

[SoonerDave]

I used to be one of those naive souls that believed in merit pay for teachers.

What they really deserve is combat pay.

Conceptually, merit pay sounds like a great idea. Being the abject conservative I am, it is a notion dear to my heart, and contrarian to just about everything the ol 'gummint wants to do.

Yet, after seeing my wife toil for the last three years in public school, my attitude has been salted with reality. She brings home piles of papers to accomodate mountains of idiotic paperwork that does virtually nothing for the betterment of education except satisfy the insatiable appetites of bureaucracy. I then see her practically in tears over students in her class that cannot and will never perform well academically not because of her inadequacy as a teacher or the inability of the student, but due to the brokenness of their homes. No father. No mother. Sometimes, there's neither one; a relative is raising one or more kids. Or there are abuse problems - emotional, physical, fill in the blank. And, at that point, you realize just how little influence an educator can hope to have on these lives in the span of a six- or seven-hour school day, divided among 25 students.

Pouring money into the district doesn't solve these problems. Pouring money into the school itself doesn't solve these problems. "Merit Pay" sounds great, and who doesn't want our teachers to get more money, but that doesn't solve these problems, either.

By contrast, I read about a school getting a blue ribbon award for test scores, and note that the school is in the middle of a very affluent neighborhood, with strong families, and laugh at the irony that those teachers are perceived to be "better" and get a hefty, federally-funded bonus for their efforts (on the order of $2,000, as I understand it).

This isn't to say those teachers don't deserve more money, but to suggest that between these two extremes that one group of teachers is more "meritorious" of a raise than another is, in reality, absurd. In the extreme, its propaganda.

The millions (billions, in fact) we've thrown at public education hasn't solved these problems, because the problems are rooted in the families and the brokenness therein. Those are problems money alone cannot possibly hope to solve.


-soonerdave

[bandnerd]

Very well said, Sooner. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[teacher girl]

I hear from people outside education (my hubby especially) saying how "easy" it is to be a teacher, the hours, the time off, etc.

What I don't think those outside of education get is how much professional development we do "after hours" during breaks (even though the children aren't in school doesn't mean we aren't working), and summers. I do to many a conferences, spend time WELL after my contract time at 4 planning lessons, emailing parents, meeting with other teachers always searching to become better!

I lived in DFW (north fort worth) for 6 years and they do taxes and stuff differently, but as far as housing and gas, no different then here (unless you worked an hour away), yet I took a good 12K pay cut........I don't complain because I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to teach, but it sure would be nice if people understood that teachers (good teachers) bust their backside to get through NCLB and make a difference in each child's life. isn't it worth it to pay them enough to teach??


I am all about respect in our profession too (especially from teachers that do give us a bad name)

[okclee]

If your husband thinks it is "easy to be a teacher" , then what do you think that others are going to think?

Your husband should know more than most, at least I would think so.

[teacher girl]

Originally Posted by okclee

If your husband thinks it is "easy to be a teacher" , then what do you think that others are going to think?

Your husband should know more than most, at least I would think so.

well, he is never in my classroom!! but I think he is finally understanding what "being a teacher" entails! PTL

[ewoodard]

Thank you SoonerDave for that little bit of insight. I wish to add to that. I am a high school teacher of 15 years. I have seen broken homes of children, but I have also seen the parents that just don't care about their kids, or the parents that don't see the value of an education, or the 9th to 12th graders having children themselves. We are also trying to push [u]all[u]children to college, when not all want to go. Many want to go to votech to learn a trade and I believe that should be praised. These young men and women will be become very productive members of society when they graduate high school. After all won't we all need plumbers, electricians, carpenters, hair stylists, nurses aides, etc...
I believe that teachers for the majority are doing everything they can to improve the lives of or children, and should be recognized for this, but it is now fashionable to downgrade teaching at the public shcool level. Untill teachers are treated with teh respect that they used to have "back in the good ol' days" then education will continue to suffer.

[East Coast Okie]

Teachers don't directly generate income/profit so it is hard to justify paying them more - particularly to tax payers. Moreover, they aren't in direct competition for wages with the private sector since private school teachers typically earn LESS than public school teachers. As for judging how to find which teachers deserve merit pay, I don't know how they would measure that. When I taught, we loved the gifted/talented group - few behavior problems, involved parents and so forth. They made us all look good. The other end of the spectrum would frequently have someone doing the harder work with parents who aren't supportive and kids who are more worried about getting something to eat or copping drugs than learning math. But you can't necessarily "test" to prove that their teacher may actually doing a phenomenal job. The old saying (and I know this is terrible in the context of children) is you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t. Not to say these poor kids are chicken sh*t - many of them are absolute marvels when you consider they are starting out with less to work with (i.e., supportive, effective families). A higher pay may attract teachers to a field in the first place, but I never thought about what I was getting paid when I was working. You are either dedicated or you aren't. As for the deal about getting the summers off, etc. - that tends to aggravate me. Teaching was a tons harder job than what I do now and I was paid a fraction of what I get, now. If you had to deal with kids day in and day out, you'd need a summer off, too, to refresh. And it is not a whole summer. A lot of teachers have to continue going to school (frequently on their own dime) and that is the only time they can do it. Plus, kids need that time, too (althoug hyear round school with several multiple week breaks sounds good, to me). If you pay teachers less than they are getting now, a lot of them would not be able to afford to teach, at all.

[icemncmth]

This is always an interesting topic..My grandmother...mother...wife...grandfather..etc

were all teachers...My wife doesn't teach now because it didn't pay enough and she decided she wanted to be a legal assistant.

Now I have been listening to teachers complaining about their pay for years. I went to the same school as my mother taught in so I ended up waiting for her in the teachers lounge. My mother taught in Oklahoma and Virgina schools and I went to both so I have seen schools that pay teachers very well and very poorly.

As for most teachers working past 4 pm...most don't. Drive by any school in Oklahoma and most of the cars are gone. There is a very small percent that works past 4pm. I have also listened to teachers talk about how they spend hours grading homework at home...I bring work home everyday and I work well over 10 hours a day...

OK..now I am on the teachers side..I do think they need more money but I think it needs to be a "full-time" job. I have said this for years to teachers and not one single teacher was willing to do this...

Lets take teaching and treat it like you would any professional job. Your first year working and you get one week off....then after two years you get 2 weeks...and 10 years 3 weeks ...(this is the nation's average on most large companies but some do differ)

OK...now since teachers won't have kids in their classroom all year around there are several things they could do...paint buildings ..mow school yards...anything that is needed to make the company run!..If you do have kids...you can still teach.

Summer school ...drivers ED..tutoring. I'm not sure what he average starting salary in Oklahoma is but my guess would be around 30,000 a years..

So what you could do is take the average starting salary for a professional in Oklahoma and start the teachers out with it. .and they would get raises based on several things. You would have a quarterly review where we could look at everything from how well your kids are doing to how well you do your other school jobs. Just like most companies do you will either get a decent raise or not based on your skills and how well you use them. So for example if you are a good mechanic and in the summers you help work on the school buses than you would probably get a little bigger raise over the person who just wants to mop the floors. You would be rewarded on "continuing" education. So in your "own" time you could go to night school and learn some good computer network skills. This could help you make more money because you again would be in a higher skill base. Or in the "companies" eyes you are a more valuable and productive employee.

As I have seen over the years there is one "HUGE" problem in the public educations system....

There is no real incentive for a teacher to do anything but the status quo. In most companies people who go above and beyond are rewarded by a better paying job..How do we reward our teachers? Teachers need to blame your Union for this...what has the Union done for you in the past 10 years?

Now that I have said all this you have to understand that my mother taught for 36 years and most of the time she taught classes at night. Usually adult education. She worked all summer teaching summer school and when that wasn't in session she tutored. She always had a job doing something and actually she is the one who told me that she thinks teachers need to work all year around. The reasoning is simple. She has worked in several different school systems (OKC, Stillwater, Claremore, Springfield VA, Burke VA...etc) and in everyone of them most of the teachers would complain about not getting paid enough but in the end she was one of the few who actually did something about it.

This includes the school in Burke VA where in the 70's she was making 56,000 a year!..And the teachers still complained!

[ewoodard]

teachergirl; I don't know what district you teach in, but it's 3 years not 3 semesters before a permanent contract is awarded.

As a high school teacher/coach I work 10 1/2 months of the year. Yes we get Christmas, Spring, and other holidays off, but 99% of theacher I know still do work in their rooms getting ready for when the kids get back. Summer break is used to look back over the previous lesson plans and refine them. I myself try to find new ways to present old material. Each teacher has to fit the lesson to ALL of the students in the class. Private school teacher, from what I have been told, do not have the same behavior problems that public school teachers face everyday. We have all heard of the students that don't have stable home lives because of drugs, poverty, etc...
Most of the teachers in this state do an outstanding job with very little resources in which to get the students ready for college, life, and lets not forget those mandated tests.
If you are going to base my pay on what 100 teenagers do on a one day test then, lets base the pay of all state employees on what someone else does for one day. All I am talking about here is fairness. The legislature gets to vote for its pay raise. Does anybody else get that luxury?

I appologize for being long winded, but I love the job I do, and get tired of others telling me how to do my job, and what I am worth.

[teacher girl]

ewoodward, I was with OKC schools and you are on a temporary contract for 3 semesters, then you are given a "permanent" contract, it's like that here in edmond as well. At least that is what they tell me. For example, my job is posted as a vacancy since I am on a temp. contract, that doesn't mean the job is actually open, but they have the final say and I have a choice to leave as well, I will get a permanent contract next december!!

[ewoodard]

In the two districts I was in it was 3 school years. I believed that was by state law, and obviously I was mistaken. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Edmond_Outsider]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

So no, any way you slice it, Texans simply seem to value education and educators more than we do over here. Is that why their economy has shot past ours in the past 50 years? Quite possibly, that's at least one of the factors at play.

Midtowner has repeatedly hit the nail on the head in this thread. We don't VALUE education enough to pay for it. Kansas and Texas and Colorado do a way better Job than we do, Arkansas, worse, and I don't know about New Mexico.

Unlike those politicians--i.e. Keating--who consider all public school teachers "slugs," teaching is a hard and mostly thankless job. Yes, there are some who are bad but the vast majority are doing the best they can within the increasingly narrow curricular restrictions.

The problem with the "merit" raises is how to measure success. I don't think the Teacher's associations categorically are against them. They don't want them to replace cost of living increases and want them to be applied fairly.

Teachers in impoverished or distressed areas, and like bandnerd who teach elective subjects have a far different criteria for "success" than those in affluent areas. A lousy teacher in an affluent area will always look good compared to a great teacher in an poor inner city or rural school.

The politicians who consider all teacher's slugs tend to want a "one affluent suburb" size fits all solution which seem more about discouraging public education and punishing those who think it is a worthy occupation.

I've wondered what the politicians hostile to public education and in favor of its' abolition would propose we do with the largely illiterate population which would result.

It would be a huge boon the the private prison industry to be sure.

Perhaps that's the master plan for economic development. Build prisons and a population to warehouse there.

That's probably easier than having an educated workforce and attracting businesses to keep them in OK.

[betts]

I am all for raising teacher's pay. If excellence isn't rewarded, it goes elswhere. However, after saying that, I think merit raises are really tricky. I've yet to work anywhere where politics aren't a big part of the office. What if you have a great teacher who's a little standoffish, or speaks his or her mind, even if it ruffles the feathers of those above him or her? Then, what if you have a friendly, easygoing not so excellent teacher whom everyone likes. Want to bet which one gets the merit raise? I think all teachers need cost of living raises across the board, as well as an increase in base pay. Then, if you're going to use merit as a means of compensation, perhaps it should be in the form of a bonus. Perhaps the schools should seek feedback from parents, or peers of the teacher. I don't know, I just know it's hard to truly reward merit all the time.

[bandnerd]

Thank you, Edmond_Outsider.