What do you guys think about these new rules? Personally, I think it's a good idea the city is finally putting some regulation on this industry. I think it willkeep the quality of the carriages up in Bricktown. The last thing we'd want in Bricktown are carriages that are unsafe and horses that are injured.
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Here's the story:

City council sets rules for carriages


By Steve Lackmeyer
The Oklahoman

Horse-drawn carriage operators have another month to do business free of regulation before they must submit to rules passed Tuesday by the Oklahoma City Council. Carriage ride
Anyone can bring a horse and carriage into Bricktown and charge for rides as long as the vehicle is deemed streetworthy. Licensing, fees and inspections will be required after an ordinance passed Tuesday takes effect Sept. 3.

The city for the past four years has required paid permits for playing a guitar on a street corner in Bricktown or selling merchandise along the canal -- but not for offering carriage rides.

The ordinance, which takes effect Sept. 3, requires operators to pay an annual $30 license fee and a $30 fee for each vehicle. Drivers will be required to obtain licenses from the police department and submit to random inspections of their carriages and horses.

"It's an idea whose time is long overdue," Ward 7 Councilwoman Willa Johnson said. "They've largely been an unregulated industry. And that was OK until Bricktown started to grow and got bigger."

Four companies operate in Bricktown: Oklahoma City Carriage, D&D Carriage, Pleasant Hill Carriage and Sooner Carriage. Johnson, who spent the past several months presiding over drafting the ordinance, said she did so in response to pleas made at a January council meeting by Tom Collett, owner of Oklahoma City Carriage.

Collett told council members some carriages carrying passengers in Bricktown were unsafe, and that horses with open wounds were being forced to carry overloaded vehicles.

The new ordinance will prohibit the use of horses if they have open wounds or other ailments or show evidence of poor care. Owners for the first time also will be required to provide water and a 15-minute rest for horses for every four hours they are on the street. Excessive use of whips also will be outlawed.

"I could have gone for more rules on animal welfare," Collett said Tuesday. "But this is 96 percent of what we need. The city did a great job at listening to the carriage operators and taking our input."

Two of Collett's competitors disagree.

Jeff Goletto, owner of Oklahoma City-based Pleasant Hill Carriages, said the ordinance is aimed at discouraging competition.

Goletto said the four carriage operators have stuck to specific stops in Bricktown under a "gentleman's agreement," and that he and Collett have maintained stops along Mickey Mantle Drive.

The new ordinance sets up specific stops that can be used by any licensed carriage operator.

"Where someone is doing the best business, that's where everybody will want to be," Goletto said. "It's going to be a 'Chariot of Fire,' redneck style."

Danny Davis, owner of Mustang-based D&D Carriage, said carriage operators didn't need any regulations, and accused Collett of lying to the council about the condition of carriages and horses.

"None of it was backed up with any facts," Davis said.

Davis stands to lose control of what he and competitors agree is the prime spot in Bricktown -- in front of the district's oldest restaurant, Spaghetti Warehouse. Davis, who bought D&D Carriages three years ago, said his carriage operation has picked up customers at the spot for 15 years.

The fourth carriage operator, Charles Spears, owner of Sooner Carriages, could not be reached Tuesday for comment, but previously told The Oklahoman he supported introducing some regulation.

Frank Sims, director of the Bricktown Association, also endorsed the ordinance. He said Collett and Spears are association members who have shown an interest in Bricktown's well-being.

"I don't know the number of people they carry, but on any given night you'll see them with a good group of folks on board," Sims said.

While the motivation may have been curbing competition, I think the concerns re: open wounds are legitimate. Another area to rein in (pun intended) the operators is establishing acceptable pick-up spots.

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This may very well attract more carriage companies, for the fact that not just one carriage company will be dominating the area in front of Spaghetti Warehouse, as in the past. It will just be one of the stops on the proposed routes, so all of the carriage companies will have a shot at attracting people at that spot.

It does sound like Oklahoma City Carriage Company was wanting to curb competition more than address safety issues, but I still think in the long run it's a good idea to have some rules in effect.

Oklahoma City should adopt the same ordinances on carriages that are in place in New York City. The carriages must stop running and the horses are to be placed in a stable if the temprature reaches 90 degrees. They are checked daily by a member of the New York City animal welfare division. The same one featured on Animal Planet.

I saw nothing concerning temprature regulation in the articles concerning the ordinance.

I'm not so sure if I agree with all of that. If we require horses to leave the street when it's over 90 degrees, we won't have carriages in Bricktown most of the summer. Of course, this summer's been an exception, but most summers around here show temps greater than 90 degrees for most of the summer. That would be a shame not to have horses for most of the summer. Seems to me, at least as long as they give the horses appropriate breaks and water, they should be fine.

Okay I know that this is late but this is one of the reasons I came to this site. I do work for onr of the carriage companys and no I am not parsial to this company. I love horses and work with horses all day long. So I seen first hand before going to work for this company. When it comes to horses and before taking the job I wanted to know a little about how they are handled, taken care for, treated, and their all around well being.

1. They aways had the gentlemans agreement on where they station that has never changed. And as far as I know that has not been broken.


2. Before the new rule you could see horses with only three shoes on and working. If someone was concernd about well fair of the horses that should have been adressed before they ( the horse ) went on the street. (a) For someone who does not know about horses wouldn't know that working them with three shoes it a very big NO NO. Their hoof is like our fingure nails but they walk on theirs and in just a few days they can wear the hoof down to nothing. Plus if you was to wear one shoe on one foot and nothing on the other you would not only feel funny but after a few hours you would hurt and that is what is happening to them.

3.Overloading carriages was a big problem, the carriage should only carry 6 people max not as many as you can fit. The carriages have weight limits too. When you can see a carriage bow from the weight you know just from coaming sence that it is too much.

4. Working a horse with open sores is not a good thing also, or the horses just looking bad in genral. People on the streets do not know that all the carriages are not from the same company, a lot of people think it's all the same company. So if one had something look wrong or someone didn't like the treatment of the horse made everyone look bad not just the one company.

5.Why worry about heat when we all know that down in bricktown and around all those big buildings ( that makes a nice wind trap ) in the winter is cold, wet, icy, and just flat out frozen. Did anyone think of that? I do know that the company I work for will not work the horses, (A) if it is too cold at night ( in the 30s) and (B) too hot during the day ( will not run on sundays during the summer).

6. They always had water for the horses now getting them to drink it is a whole different thing ( " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"). Yes 15 minute breaks, I'll give that one to you free, lol. Even the drives need to use a restroom.


Now it does not sound bad when you talk about the lincenes but that is not the whole cost just to get one. For the driver alone is about $75 to start, you have to get and pay for other things before you can get the lincene. Just as if you was a Taxi driver but for less pay. And let me tell you it take about 3 nights of working in the winter ( without spending a penny) to pay for that. You work of tips and if your lucky pay from the company. And people tip less for this then they do at a buffet resturant. I make more washing the husbanes pants most of the time, lol. ( you ladies know what I mean).
I see it as people want the carriages but they think they are their for free. Then horses them self have to be paid too and where do they think that comes from? Draft horses are a beutifull animals and the are very loving, and seeing them rot in a pasture (and mostlikely die at an earily age) just tragidy.

They remind the older people of their youth and the give a little romance to those couples that are looking for something better.

Sorry so long but like I said in my profile I am a horse lover and proud of it.

Hey mistress x123, thanks so much for your input on this topic. We appreciate the inside information. Sounds to me like instead of requiring a license/fee, the city instead needs to have periodic inspections of the services to make sure horses and carriages are properly maintained. Seems like police officers at the Bricktown Police Station could do this without too much trouble.

Thank you Patrick. The already do these inspections of all horses, carriages, and drivers. Also every company has to have a biz licenes, each carriage has to have a lincenes, and the drivers lincenes all visiable to the public. For the carriages the passagers have to be able to see it from the seats in back.

Don't get me wrong I am all for some rule, but to treat it like a taxi cab (even though it is concedred to be a vehical for hire) is a little too much. For pete sakes they only go .05 mph on a good, lol. I have seen how some of these taxi's drive and if the carriages were driven like this everyone would be in big trouble, lol.

I am not tring to make anyone upset or get made but there is a lot that is going on behined the sceen, if you know what I mean.

Oh by the way I have been told several times that our horses and carriages look a lot better then the ones in New York.

Sorry just a few words from the horse lover, lol.

I think the licenses were necessary and the regulation will be good. It may seem harsh now but will make sense overtime as Bricktown and business continues to grow. Also I think another main point to the regulation was how it was an unregulated industry while others such as the water taxi's etc. are regulated and thus it wasnt a fair business climate to all companies in the transportation industry.

90 degrees in Kansas is not the same as 90 degress in San Antonio. More has to be taken into consideratin other than just the temperature. Humidity and wind speed along with the temperature index, and that is what is important when working horses at home or downtown. On the days when the humidity is high and the wind is not blowing, 90 degrees is too high. Other times, 94 degrees coupled with the right humidity and air speed is perfectly acceptable for a horse to work. Large horse cannot take the heat index quite as well as the smaller horses, so that too should be taken into consideration. There are other concerns that I feel should be considered, (I may have just missed them in the posts) but in my humble opinion, every 4 hrs is just a little too long for a horse to work without at least a 10-15 minute break, with water. And yes, mandatory shoes on all four feet (that's a no brainer) Owners of horses should have to present a vet cert verifing the horse fitness to work, their shot record, etc, BEFORE receiving their permit. If the owners are following the rules and genuinely care for their horses and passengers, they shoudn't worry about spots checks periodically of their animals and equipment. I find that some owners know that they are pushing the envelope when it comes to both issues, and others are uneducated when it comes to the subject. I know that this is a long post, but one more thing. If everyone submits to the same inspections, pays the same amount of money for their permit to work, and follows the same rules, I see no reason for any company, established or "new kid on the block" should have any advantage or "squatter's rights" on the best pick up spots in Bricktown. Competition is good and raising the bar does nothing but improve the service, not hurt it. I noticed a comment that if rules regarding loading spaces were regulated, that it would become "chariots of fire". Methinks that is a comment on that one person's attitude and intentions to comply, uncivilized at best. Well now, that's my two cents worth, maybe five cents.

Five cents for invaluable info. Thanks GrandMaMa.

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True greatness requires many fathers.

For a good time, see http://www.okchornets.com/

Five cents for invaluable info. Thanks GrandMaMa.[/quote]

Thanks for listening to an ole" Grandma ramble

I had a couple of other items to add, but I had already submitted a very long response, so quit before I was actually finished. I was in such a hurry when I typed my last post, I pretty much left out a lot. Temperature, wind speed, and humidity combined make up what is the "heat index" much like the cold index when the temperature is cold and the wind speed is added, then add moisture and yikes! So, I believe that there should be a definite standard rule that if the heat index is (whatever is agreed upon), NO horses are on the street. For one thing, the street is still holding a lot of heat from the day, and yes, that heat does conduct. It is reduced if the horses are wearing non conducting pads under their shoes, but I would guess that at any given time, one could go down to BrickTown and lift up a horse's foot and not find many of those pads...not if anyone would even consider working a horse without shoes or with only 3 shoes.

I noticed that someone mentioned that the police could monitor most things during operation. Well, yes and no. Policemen that are also horsemen could, but not just policemen with a set of rules in their hands. One should be able to, at a glance, see if a horse is favoring a leg, foot, hip whatever..also, is that horse laboring too hard for the load that he is pulling. Are his shoes long overdue for a reset or replacing? Just because a horse is sweating, doesn't make the situation abusive. I sweat when I work, thank goodness I do, and thank goodness that a horse does as well. There are times to be alarmed when a horse is not sweating. Is the horse obviously drugged or not? A horseman is more able to tell these things and more. They can tell that someone that is touching their horse with a whip to commmunicate with it, guide it and settle it, giving it confidence to go on where it just might not want to go, even it that whip is touching that horse constantly, is not necessarily overuse of a whip. If a driver only touches their horse one or two times in a night, but the use itself is punitive or out of context or out of frustration of the driver, then, that IS whip abuse. Insurance papers should designate the capacity of any vehicle, horse drawn or not and anything over that is actually illegal and nullifies the insurance coverage. Now, lap children under 3 is another story and should be able to be taken into consideration. In my opinion, if a battery fails and a replacement or substitute is not handy and the carriage's flashing lights in back are out, they have no business on the public streets. The driver is putting his passenger's life in danger, not to mention his and his horse. Sometimes the almighty dollar takes over and concern and respect for what is right is forgotten, that is where trouble begins. I don't know personally any of the owners or drivers of any of the companies who work in BrickTown, so I can really be objective about this last statement. I truly feel that if anyone is dragging their feet when it comes to rules and regulations that protect passengers, horses or the general public, those are the ones that need the regulations the most. There, now I've finished my 5 cents worth.

I would really like to hear from the owners and drivers of the existing carriage companies themselves. No one knows the business, it's positive side and it's pitfalls like someone that is in the business. Sometimes, without this input, those in authority, in their zeal to improve the situation, can only make it worse if they are trying to do it without pertinent information. What comes or goes in New York is pretty irrevelant here in OKC. They have a completely different way of operating and make different demands on their horses. Even those companies in Texas have different priorities when it comes to the health and well being of their horses and their passengers and their drivers. Sometimes, common sense prevails, but one does have to have a good background in horses and in the business itself before you can apply that common sense effectively. Thanks for listening.

Hey Grandmama, you own a carriage company in Bricktown? If so, sounds like you do a fine job caring for the overall well being of your horses, looking at that before the profits you would make personally from the service. I applaud you.

Thank you Jack, but no, I don't. I am familiar with the industry though, in several locales that have varied weather, working conditions and regulations. I have witnessed, over the last 20 yrs, people (without the correct knowledge or background)and with good intentions, harming the industry and the animals involved. As a matter of fact, a carriage driver actually makes more money when he slows down, does a better and safer job and takes care of his animals in so doing. Generally, people appreciate that and even a non-horse person can tell where your priorities are. Remember what specifically your question was? Do you own a carriage company in Bricktown?

I'm very, well..sorta surprised that we havn't heard from the carriage folks themselves. Seems as though, if they were concerned about the overall welfare of the carriage industry, they would weigh in and become an active participant of creating the new regulations rather than drag their feet. They may be doing just that and we don't know it, that's why I would love to hear from them. Change is evident and necessary, so who better to help make that change than the people involved in the industry themselves? Besides, it would be a good opportunity to solicitate input from the general public regarding changes of services that they would like to see. How can an industry that is strictly service orientated not be customer driven? The carriage industry is a wonderful opportunity to provide services to the public, but does need to be structured and regulated to protect not only the customers, drivers and horses, but the GENERAL public as well. In an earlier post, I noticed that someone was attempting to make the point that cars need to be regulated because of the speed that they are capable of producing...well, speed is not what makes a horse a safety hazard, to himself nor others...a horse has a mind of his own, cars do not. You can park a car, lock it up and walk away, knowing that unless someone decides to be the new owner without going through the proper channels, all is well and you can relax. With a horse, you can never completely relax. You have to be aware of everything and everyone one that is around your horse, and watch your horse as well...all at the same time that you are talking to someone about a tour or about your horses or whatever. When we, as owners or drivers begin to take shortcuts all in the name of saving time, that's when the trouble begins. First it begins with just laying down the lines or tieing them without someone there to head your horse. You got by that time, so the next time, you walk away from your horse to pick up a water bucket. Good, you got by that time..next time, you go completely to the back of your carriage to change your lights battery..now, the horse has figured out that there is nothing between him and where ever he wants to go, so why not? People look up and see a horse/carriage but no attendant, no driver.They may only be walking 1 or 2 miles an hr at the time, but they can causes all kinds of injury and destruction, to himself and equipment and to the general public...so, you cannot make the comparison with horses/cars...unless you have figured out how to do so with apples and oranges. People don't consider that there should be absolute and unchanging rules when it comes to walking away from your horse unattended. While driving down the street, I have witnesses horses, hitched to carriages ground tied to what is known as GROUND TIES ...lead rope tied to something heavy laying on the curb or street...no attendant in sight, nowhere. Now, that method works quite well with a work team that just put in 4 hrs in the field, they want to stand still and rest, they don't see trolleys and trains coming around the bend to eat them alive...I hope that someone gets my point..it can be a wonderful and safe industry for the horses and the public, or it can become a nightmare, literally hell on wheels, wheels turned by money and greed. Well now, that's about 10 cents worth, so I'd better stop. I would welcome any response, but especially some from those in the industry.