Keith & Patrick??

jbrown84 · #26 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 04:57 PM

Thanks.

Deni · #27 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 05:11 PM

I did not assume anything.. I know they were banned... I seen that much. I dont see eye to eye with alot of people in the world. Actually that is what makes America so AWESOME we can agree to disagree.

I dont even like half of my own clients, but to turn them away because I dont like them would be like cutting my own throat.

Patrick and Keith both have said there is no hard feelings, but sometimes being a leader you have to make choices you dont like. However I think also being a leader you should explain some things that seem to effect everyone like them being banned does this site.

They have some great friends on here and them being banned effects most of those friends .

Midtowner I have been a member of the site for awhile.. I was under HottCutz, but I begged Todd to change my name cause it got me confused when people talked to me and called me by my name on here.. Hott Cutz is my business not me...lol

I agree Malibu can do what he wants. That is the joy of owning your own business. I own my own business so I know what that means and I know that sometimes choices are hard to make. However to ban someone is just crazy. I have seen way worse on this site that has happened and none of those people got banned...????

Well.. I am not sorry I stood up for Patrick and Keith. They are great people.. Cant we all agree to disagree...

bandnerd · #28 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 05:13 PM

I apologize--I had an insanely bad day at work and I didn't mean to take it out on anyone on this board. I even canceled a piano lesson so I wouldn't take out my negativity and frustration on my 10 year-old student.

But like several people have now said--it's Malibu's decision. I will say, and I'm sure that everyone will not be shocked, that I am not sad to see either of them go. They had their reasons to leave in the first place. I have no problem letting them go.

I kind of stopped talking with Patrick when a heated discussion ended in him telling me I needed to give back the wedding gift he had gotten for us. I thought that was incredibly rude and it spoke volumes to me.

Keith has crossed words with me several times, and has been very unkind to me.

I have met both these people in person, and they seemed like nice enough guys at the time, but I saw sides of both of them that turned my stomach.

That said, I will wait for my pizza and take out my anger and frustration on it's cheesy goodness.

Doug Loudenback · #29 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandnerd

You seem to be the only one who's disgruntled.

How often did Todd ever explain himself around here? I can't recall a single time. Malibu can run this board in the way he sees fit, whether anyone else likes it or not. That's the joy of being the owner.

If you weren't a part of it, then it doesn't really concern you all that much, now does it? If Keith and Patrick start their own Christian Oklahomans forum then visit it and support it, and be their friend. That's fine.

Well, actually, I do remember at least one ... since it involved ME, I remember it! See my earlier post in this thread.

At that time, after everyone stepped back and took some deep breaths (after Downtown Guy's intervention (god bless that masked man!), each of us involved in the fracus at that time apologized with explanations IN THIS FORUM as well as privately all the way around ... Todd, Keith, me ... I don't remember if Patrick was involved in the situation. We all grew up a little, lo so many months ago!

Doug Loudenback · #30 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 06:02 PM

Midtowner, my friend ... and you've not forgotten that I am, correct? ... I think that you are perhaps being uncharacteristally inconsistent ... in this thread, first, you said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midwotwner

FWIW, I think ya did good.

... but then ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midtowner

I have a very long history here of being against banning people for their beliefs.

Now, I'm sure that these statements are reconcilable, but there does seem present in your 1st remark something other than dispassionate objectivity and agreement that the banning was "good," for reasons you did not disclose.

I was one of your defenders, as you know ... hell, I even defended Mr. Anderson once upon a time, and, if memory serves, the "two o' youtz" are like oil and water! I need not remind you that not a few people here said much the same about your being banned here some time back. I was not one of them, but one who protested. You ventured off into what is now OkMet.com but eventually came back here. Frankly, I like both places and don't see them as mutually exclusive.

All I'm saying, at its core, is that this problem can surely be "fixed" if reasonable minds want to do so. And, I hope that they do.

A starting point is communication between those who are involved.

Doug Loudenback · #31 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandnerd

I apologize--I had an insanely bad day at work and I didn't mean to take it out on anyone on this board. I even canceled a piano lesson so I wouldn't take out my negativity and frustration on my 10 year-old student.

But like several people have now said--it's Malibu's decision. I will say, and I'm sure that everyone will not be shocked, that I am not sad to see either of them go. They had their reasons to leave in the first place. I have no problem letting them go.

I kind of stopped talking with Patrick when a heated discussion ended in him telling me I needed to give back the wedding gift he had gotten for us. I thought that was incredibly rude and it spoke volumes to me.

Keith has crossed words with me several times, and has been very unkind to me.

I have met both these people in person, and they seemed like nice enough guys at the time, but I saw sides of both of them that turned my stomach.

That said, I will wait for my pizza and take out my anger and frustration on it's cheesy goodness.

Bandnerd, in my opinion, "telling tales" of personal stuff is not fair play if the other person doesn't have the ability to respond. Frankly, telling personal tales about another member, in this case, former member, is probably out of line, anyway you cut it.

SoonerDave · #32 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 06:45 PM

** sigh ** Now we have aspersions cast against those who can no longer defend themselves. This is precisely what led me to make the suggestion that the other side of this issue should come out for the good of the site. This is how things start spiraling out of control or proportion...

-sd

bandnerd · #33 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Loudenback

Bandnerd, in my opinion, "telling tales" of personal stuff is not fair play if the other person doesn't have the ability to respond. Frankly, telling personal tales about another member, in this case, former member, is probably out of line, anyway you cut it.

Doug, these are not "tales" as they are out in the open. These things were said, I believe, on the forum, not in private messages.

All I'm saying is that no one is perfect, and frankly, Keith and Patrick are no exceptions. Neither am I. But obviously, a line was crossed, and something was done about it. People saying they were great people and great contributors irks me because I saw a different side of both of them and I guess others either never saw that, or they conveniently forgot.

And I will politely back out of this thread now, as it is apparent that I have nothing useful to add, at least nothing that anyone would like to hear.

TomGirl · #34 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 07:05 PM

You can make me # 4. Enough said.

Midtowner · #35 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Loudenback

Now, I'm sure that these statements are reconcilable, but there does seem present in your 1st remark something other than dispassionate objectivity and agreement that the banning was "good," for reasons you did not disclose.

Doug,

I don't see how the two statements even have to be reconciled. What one does and what one believes are two entirely different things. Perhaps my condemnation is more for the former of those two than the later?

Keith made it no secret that he wasn't my biggest fan. In fact, he's the reason I disappeared for a few months. I suddenly found him nitpicking at what I did while allowing others to get away with murder (e.g., calling my wife a "waste," a "future unfit mother," etc.) He had acted against me, deleting my posts, banning my name on multiple occasions. His actions were reversed every time because they were found to be without foundation and unreasonable.

So am I sorry to see him gone? Not at all.

mods, feel free to delete whatever in this post is objectionable. As I read the TOS, it says "advocacy" of a banned member is verboten.... it says not a thing about condemnation. I'm pretty sure I can prove every bit of what I'm saying as I should have the emails and PM's to show what occured.

Also, FWIW, this whole thread violates the TOS in that it is questioning the acts of a moderator/the admin. I feel my posts are in line because I'm questioning someone who is an ex-moderator, thus not seemingly falling under the definition of that rule.

Easy180 · #36 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 07:15 PM

bandnerd to be fair you really should have included all the personal stuff on your blog instead of here...

Those tales were on public threads as you said bandnerd as my dorky self remembers that whole ordeal

I too hope we don't lose anymore on here because of this

Doug Loudenback · #37 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandnerd

Doug, these are not "tales" as they are out in the open. These things were said, I believe, on the forum, not in private messages.

All I'm saying is that no one is perfect, and frankly, Keith and Patrick are no exceptions. Neither am I. But obviously, a line was crossed, and something was done about it. People saying they were great people and great contributors irks me because I saw a different side of both of them and I guess others either never saw that, or they conveniently forgot.

And I will politely back out of this thread now, as it is apparent that I have nothing useful to add, at least nothing that anyone would like to hear.

Bandnerd, I have no knowledge of what you said about Patrick and the gift item was mentioned "publically" in this forum. I rarely venture beyone current Okc & Bricktown stuff, so I'm largely ignorant of what is posted in other elements of OkcTalk since that's not "where I want to go." If, as you suggest, what you alluded to is already in the "public" arena, a link would easily demonstrate that.

We do agree, though, that "no one" is perfect ... including me. I've already "exposed" part of my own imperfection in the 1st post I made in this thread. I made a "knee-jerk" reaction to something long since past ... guys at OkcTalk did, too. Knee-jerks all the way around! But, thanks to the Downtown Guy, ... well, I've already said that.

I have enjoyed reading your messages elsewhere here and have no reason to disrespect either you or your ideas or opinions. And, I don't.

So, when you said, "... as it is apparent that I have nothing useful to add, at least nothing that anyone would like to hear...," if you meant to say that I wasn't opening to listening and considering your thoughts, and I mean, "really" listening, that's just not so.

But, if you think that it's OK for me to tell a "private" story about you (and we've never met so that's an impossiblity) in the public area of this forum, that is where we have to part company. That's never ever an Ok thing to do. I've not read the TOC in a long long while, but I have to assume that there's probably something in there about that. And that's even all the more true when the object of the private story lacks the capacity to respond, i.e., a "banned" member with thousands of posts prior to his banishment, and, in this instance, one of the few who developed this forum into become the place that we, you, me, lots of others, enjoy. There are always at least two sides to every story. Always. It's never any other way. That concept is probably one of those unwritten "god-things" ... something that is universally, always, and invariably, true.

Make sense?

bandnerd · #38 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 07:50 PM

Thank you, Easy, for remembering.

Okay, so I'm not being fair. But this whole thread isn't fair...and I'm pretty sure Mid is right in saying that this whole thread is a violation of the TOS, if we're going to get all technical about it.

Everyone here seems to have completely been in love with these two, and I saw a different side. That's all I'm trying to say. I can't back that up without giving some personal experiences, although they were on this public forum. This forum will continue with or without them.

I did a search for you, Doug: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-undergrou...gift#post73903

Actually, Patrick asked Mid for the wedding gift money back, not me, but since we are married, I was a little more than insulted. I didn't really say that on the forum, but it was said for me.

I'm pretty sure if you all want to keep in touch with Patrick and/or Keith, you can find their email addresses pretty easily.

And Doug, I didn't necessarily mean you weren't listening to what I had to say, but that my opinion is obviously SO different on this topic, and everyone is going to be protective of these two ex-mods, that I really don't see any point to me posting much more in this thread, because everyone's minds are already made up.

Doug Loudenback · #39 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midtowner

Doug,

I don't see how the two statements even have to be reconciled. What one does and what one believes are two entirely different things. Perhaps my condemnation is more for the former of those two than the later?

Keith made it no secret that he wasn't my biggest fan. In fact, he's the reason I disappeared for a few months. I suddenly found him nitpicking at what I did while allowing others to get away with murder (e.g., calling my wife a "waste," a "future unfit mother," etc.) He had acted against me, deleting my posts, banning my name on multiple occasions. His actions were reversed every time because they were found to be without foundation and unreasonable.

So am I sorry to see him gone? Not at all.

mods, feel free to delete whatever in this post is objectionable. As I read the TOS, it says "advocacy" of a banned member is verboten.... it says not a thing about condemnation. I'm pretty sure I can prove every bit of what I'm saying as I should have the emails and PM's to show what occured.

Also, FWIW, this whole thread violates the TOS in that it is questioning the acts of a moderator/the admin. I feel my posts are in line because I'm questioning someone who is an ex-moderator, thus not seemingly falling under the definition of that rule.

Great, Midtowner! You'll make a great lawyer, favoring form over substance! Not a problem for me, "from time to time." We do what we need to do to represent our clients.

This isn't a "lawyerly" forum, it is an exchange of ideas forum with the focus on Oklahoma City. Hopefully, it is a place that intelligent discussion is the guage. Hopefully, it is a place where substance rather than form reigns supreme.

You are, from my memory, correct in saying that "Keith" wasn't one of your biggest fans! But, so what? Does "Keith=not one my biggest fans" equate to banishment in your book these days? If you are friendly to that equation, how do you handle my support of you during your banishment, and my support of you during your "reinstatement?" Do you think that I should perceive, in fairness, your situation in a different way than I do Keith and Patrick?

You lumped Keith and Patrick together in your "good" comment. You've voiced your grievances against Keith, but what about Patrick? We're talking about two individual people here, so I guess you have a case with Patrick, as well?

Midtowner, "lots" of people weren't your "biggest fan" here. You posted (in olden times) in a provocative manner. You know that's so. I even joined with you on many occasions (e.g., gay issues, whatever) before I decided that engaging in argument for argument's sake was not worth the time spent), but that fact did not prevent me from coming to your defense. Not only once, but on many occasions.

You once were "Thomas Jefferson" (at least in your avatar).

So, Midtowner, are you straight out saying that it was a "good" thing to ban Patrick and Keith, even though, and perhaps because, they didn't "like" you or were your adversaries?

If not that, why do you say that it was "good" for them to be banned as well as stripped of their status?

I'm listening.

Doug Loudenback · #40 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 09:14 PM

My Probable Final Post In This Thread

Well, for sure, some time passing, and it's eveident that I'm not "the Lone Ranger" aka the venerable Downtown Guy who worked miracles in my much eqarlier conflict/resoluton context and, as well, that I am essentially useless in trying to find a solution that will "make things Ok here again."

I sent a PM to Malibu yesterday about this, but I have no reply so far. If Malibu is opting out of the response process to threads such as this, he's he owner here, and that is his priviledge.

In the absence of forum-owner input, this thread goes on for now.

As far as this thread is concerned, the posts in this thread tend to be 'black/white" (e.g. argumentative) ... "I'm right, you are wrong" ... kind of things. I've received some private e-mails from the "dispactched" members indicating they'ed be glad to "talk" with Malibu but that they've not head from him in this conext.

I think that's where I stop, and exit, at least for now.

Deni · #41 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 09:26 PM

I have always seen bad and good threads from alot of people. I for one also like bandnerd. She is a great person, tho we disagree on some issues..

Now would I want her husband or herself banned because they said things I did not agree with ? I dont get how we can actually kick someone off a site because we decided we did not like the choice they made or the words they used.

If that is the case Mr Anderson would have been banned along time ago when he was totally insulting bandnerd,karried and myself as women. He got away with all that...

I understand okctalk has a new owner. I get that part..But Mr Bush is our President and I dont agree with him all the time. I also can say giving constructive criticism can be a good thing. So I gave my thoughts on this subject and I am another that is done with the conversation..
One more thing.. I think its really bad when it has banned by their names... I think that shows lack of class or respect for people..

They can just join me as (moderator rejects) lol

Deni

Easy180 · #42 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 09:36 PM

Well judging from Keith's blog he was a big fan of my work on here

Not really sure why he singled me out aside from a recent religious thread that got him upset...Before that I think I had conversed with him less than 5 times in the year I've been on here

Like I said before there really hasn't been any truly heated discussions on here since cc and thecomedian left this fine forum so I'm not sure how this thing blew up

I do want to say I don't believe any of this had anything to do with religion...Think that is quite a stretch and doesn't make any sense at all

Pete Brzycki · #43 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 09:36 PM

Doug, I never received a PM from you otherwise I certainly would have responded.

I don't know what to say about all this other than I really don't think it's appropriate to air dirty laundry in public.

Anyone that has been on this board for a while knows that I have never once had the slightest disagreement with anyone, that I'm always rational and respectful.

You also have to know that I would stand nothing to gain by dealing with this situation in the way that has been forced upon me. I truly regret that these things have come to pass but I have to do what's best for the site.

I can also assure you that if any of you were in my position, you would have done the exact same thing and likely sooner than I did.

As for the "banned" part, there is no way to change that title in the system otherwise I would.

And finally, I'm allowing this discussion to go on because I realize this is a big change and people want to express themselves a bit. However, let's please refrain from posting personal opinions about other members here. Thanks.

bandnerd · #44 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 09:38 PM

Sorry...

*kicks at a rock*